The Steel Guitar Forum

all the older (3 years or more) players:

what was the hardest thing for you to get in your head and how did you get thru it?

i'll start:
for me 1 thing was when someone
would tell me i needed to play a Bb (for example)
i thought i had to find a Bb on just a certain string on a certain fret
....later i learned i could find the chord Bb and then pick which string and which
fret i wanted
that made a lot of things start working a lot easier for me

add you own and maybe it will help
some of the new guys

Many times a newcomer to steel guitar already can play some other instrument such as rhythm guitar, etc. For those folks (or any who can hear chord changes) to me, learning what I call the three neck and pedal positions help a lot. ie -- (Key of G) The number one or "G" chord can be at the third fret--no pedals--strings 3-4-5-6-8-10 . Again at the 6th fret with pedal A and raise the "E's" in other words you have raised strings 4-5-8 & 10 (this requires a knee lever that raises 4 and 8 ) The third position is at the 10th fret "A & B" pedals down. You can work lots of voicings and notes moving from any one position to others and it works in the same ratio from any open fret position.

Calvin -- as has been mentioned in other threads, this chart has been a big help to a lot of people, myself included:



Pedal Steel Guitar Chord Chart by Dewitt Scott
This is a handy, easy to read chart that shows the basic E9 pedal steel guitar chord forms. Each chord is shown in a special pedal steel diagram form. Major, minor, dominant, seventh, diminished, and augmented chords are shown in the keys of C,D,E,F,G, and A. In each of these keys the three primary chords in the relative minor keys are also shown. An additional special feature is the inclusion of a pedal steel tuning chart for E9 tuning.

Think "play the melody" was/still is hard to get a grasp of, since I am a long time bass player, thinking rythme and patterns. But it is real easy for me to comp on steel, too, because of that bass background. Knowing the bass guitar neck easily transfered over to steel guitar neck for me, too.

My father the late Rev. Dwight Moody...

In order for your mind to grow you must learn that the difference between crap and fertilizer is how you use it.

OK all of this is going to spark an argument

Learn to talk the talk and then you’ll know how to walk the walk.

First thing is to prepare your mind. Communication is the best tool for learning.

Learn to use your computer. It is best communicating and learning tool you can acquire.

In order to communicate you also need to 1. Learn to read and write notation, 2. Learn to read and write chord formula ( E13b5#9 etc.), 3. Learn to read and write number systems (Nashville Numbers etc.), 4. Learn all you can about music theory, 5. Learn to read and write tab (you won’t need it but others will and sometime this is the only way you can communicate with them), 6. If it’s the pedal steel you want to play learn the neck or necks (If you need a book to find the chords on your Steel you need to study more).

Leaning to use Band in a Box or (equivalent) to its full capabilities is a fun way to learn and apply all of the above.

Finally if you most have a teacher (GOOD IDEA) find one who can talk the talk as well as he walks the walk.

As in C#dim, being nothing more than an A7th Voicing When played over an A.

Or put another way remove the root note A from the A7 cord and you have a C#diminished.

Here is a fellow who asked for help. Didn't get much. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=126688

As in C#dim, being nothing more than an A7th.

Really?.....

Nic du Toit wrote:

As in C#dim, being nothing more than an A7th.

Really?.....

Don...could you elaborate on that please? I would love to get that.

Go here a see if they are the same...
http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/A7.asp

or here
http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/chords/A_major/A7/a7.html

HI ALL
Many thanks for thinking of us at the bottom of the pile im sure there will be plenty looking at this thread me for one.
vic eaton uk.

Sure.. In "A" Major Triad are the notes:
A, C#, E.

For "A7" you add the flatted 7th note to it, making it: A, C#, E, G

The "G" note being the flatted 7th in the A Scale: A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#. in making the A7th Cord.

Dom 7th Cords consist of the 1, 3, 5 & b7 (flatted 7 note).

In "C#" Major Triad are the notes: C#, f, G#
As in: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#

The "C#dim" is: C#, E, G

Or said another way: Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C

Db/C# are the same note.
Eb/D# are the same note.
F/E# are the same note.
Gb/F# are the same note.
Ab/G# are the same note.
Bb/A# are the same note.
C/B# are the same note.

I like to write C# out in Db, since in all reality, C# is Db and I don't like calling F note E#, which you have to in order to follow rules for scales, and I don't like calling C, B#, but again, at times you have to.

"C#" Cord is again: C#, F, G#
The C# Dimimished, notes are: C#, E, G Which is the 3rd, 5th and flatted 7th of the "A" scale.

Note: for diminished cords, you lower the 3rd and 5th note 1/2 a tone.

The A major notes Are: A, C#, E

For "A7th", the "A" cord, gets a "G" note added on which happens to be the flatted 7th note of the "A" scale as in:

A, C#, E, G

Just to explain:

Rules for scales, states that you Must use every note name within a scale. But you can't use any of them more than once.

So, in order to fulfill the rules C# has to be written out as ALL SHARPS. Or you'd get this:

C#, D# F, F# G# A# B# (as can be seen, we missed the E note. Therefore not naming each and every note name in the scale. A no no in scale rules.

Now if we then write it out using Db as opposed to C#, (since Db and C# are the same note) we follow all the rules for scales, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C.

As in D,E,F,G,A,B,C..

Hope this helped, more than to confuse. If it's wrong blame my wife for talking to me.

Don

Don, what a clear AND detailed mind you have!
This one is a must for printing off and putting in my folder of goodies for detailed study later on. Yes, I saw the sense in it. It is not confusing at all. It tells me one thing for sure: I need to learn a whole bunch more theory!

John R. Thanks for the links. I will try and make sense out of those as well.
This is a great thread.
Bent

retracted

Not wanting to get involved in a dispute it is better for the parties see the notes that make up the chords, then they will and so will all of us learn a little more...

Sandy, all well and good. Congratulations on being a Piano Teacher for the 27 years.

However, how long have you played Pedal Steel? You see, we don't use six fingers nor five fingers, nor not many of us use over a two finger and Thumb string grip. Therefore, in using triads that work, is the important thing we're dealing with.

I wrote the scales out, as they are, and all you accomplished was to confuse. That's not adding to by showing us how many years you've been this or that. I'm quite certain, what counts is, how it actually works out, in the sound dept.

The bass will usually carry the Root note thanks, but we really for the most part, work with Triad portions, and or only two strings grips at a time, depending on what's needed as voicing.

Don

i think what Don is saying is that what works well on a piano doesn't carry over well on steel

a lot of this tech stuff , is one of
the many things that just serves to confuse
a new player
a newbie has his/her hands full trying
to get the hands knees & feet all
working together + trying to learn the fretboard

it all needs to be learned ,
having said that a new player just wants to get going, then dive into the tech stuff

retracted

we all have had things that just
would not click in our head
and then all of a sudden it all made sense

what i would like to see is, the older players
tell their stories about what made it click
for them.
it might just help a rookie get over the hump
and who knows, it might just keep him from
quiting when all he needs is to get
past a mental block

i'm having a ball playing now
but it wasn't always fun

Yeah Calvin, there will always be somethings that do not quite clic, until enough "other" information is learned and absorbed to make that "something" clic. That's why it is imperitive that a student keep forging ahead, trusting what their mentor says, and doing what their mentor says, until that light comes on. At least that seems to be the way it works out for me.

Have someone play an "A" Major Triad, or even adding the A note Octave onto the end making it:

A, C#, E, A While you play a "C#" Diminished triad:

(C#, E, G, Triad), you will be voicing an A7.

I didn't say "AMaj7, nor Am7, I said A7, which is a Dominant 7th.

If Sandy had really read what I wrote, she's have seen that I pointed out, you would be playing the 3rd, 5th and flatted 7th of the "A" Major scale, while playing a C# Diminished.

So, from the above, you could also say, that we could take any other 3rd tone of a scale, of any root, and make a diminished triad that would work with the root, as a "7th."

Example would be, "C" Scale C,D,E,F,G,A,B,

That would then be an "E" diminished played over a "C" Major

So here they are:

Root Cords: and the relative Diminished that will work over them. In reality, they are the Dom 7, with the Root tone left off.

C = E dim = E, G, A#
C# = F dim = F, G#, B
D = F# dim = F#, A, C
D# = G dim = G, A#, C#
E = G# dim = G#, B, D
F = A dim = A, C, D#
F# = A# dim = A#, C#, E
G = B dim = B, D, F
G# = C dim = C, D# F#
A = C# dim = C#, E, G
A# = D dim = D, f, G#
B = D# dim = D#, F#, A

Therefore, in the above just remember that in place of a C7, E dim will work just fine.

Then you could also say, that you could take a Dom 7th, remove the root note, and you have the 3rd tone Diminished Cord..

First one has to know if they want to play piano using all 10 fingers, or Pedal Steel, using for the most part, a Thumb and Two fingers, and using the portions of cords that will work. I'm a Pedal Steel Player.

Now, I may not know much about all that pedal steel music theory stuff, but I know something about cords.

Cords are very important to the pedal steel player. Without cords, the music would never get to the amplifier and to the listener. I't also important to know their correct names.

Most of the time you'll use only one or two cords. These are called your Dominant cords. Very short cords are called Diminished cords. Much longer cords are called augmented cords. Occasionally a cord won't work right, and you'll have to reach into your pak-a-seat and employ a Cord Substitution. There may be a lot of cords in there (Polycords), so make sure you get the right one.

Jerry, now that's really funny..

Thanks, Don. If there's anything more you want to know about cords or music theory, just let me know.