Quick Question

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

do you think playing any song above the 12th fret helps
bar control..it might not sound as good played up there
but will it help to play it on the higher frets just for mastering bar control

my own thinking on this is that it will force better bar control as well as help with ear training
but i could be wrong . thats why i am asking
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Calvin,being able to play at the fifteenth fret is as IMPORTTANT as playing at the fifth fret,It's a fact you have to work a little harder on intonation the farther you get up the neck,this come with practice,practice,practice,One thing you need to rethink[IMO] is the statement you made about it may not sound as good above the 12th fret,one example is Look at Us by the great John H.Keep hanging in there ,enjoy it,and it WILL happen.DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

i agree Charles

somethings sound great above the 12th
but a lot doesn't
i have been playing any and everthing up there
just because of the different chords
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

John Roche · From: England

Calvin, it helps to eyeball the next fret your going to move to just before you move to it, watch John H he looks at the next fret a split second before he moves,
also vibrato is a little less up above the 12 fret, to start with just pick the chord once then the next one letting them ring until your feel is right, then you can start to pick around the chord, this is also good to do lower down the neck, learn to count in your head, on the tracks you have played on youtube there is a count in keep on counting 1234 in tempo while your playing this is what we all do , this will forward you much quicker.. John

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Cal, the cords up above the 12th fret are exactly the same as below the 12 fret.

Only difference is, if you're off a hair up there, you'll be off a whole lot, whereas, playing farther down, if you're off a little, it wouldn't be nearly as noticable.

But the cords are the same, regardless of where you play at on the neck, with the exception, you are playing each string Chromatic scale, up an Octave higher.

PS: Forgot to add that playing up high, you want your steel to be in Precise tuning or it won't sound good at all.. Everything a person does up in that area, depends on everything being much more pronounced than it otherwise may. That's the key factor to it sounding well way up there. Pedals can't be off, tuning can't be off.

And by tuning, I'm not concerned about straight up tuning, nor any of that. I'm speaking of precise tuning that even a tuner will not produce, unless you've found your perfect tuning and then programmed that into your tuner. That's simply a known fact.

Tuning a Pedal Steel to be in as perfect pitch as one can get it to be, is one of me most overlooked
(by new/er) players than anything else they do.

This isn't about tuning to Jeff's chart or anyone elses. Each Pedal Steel, is slightly different than the next one, and each one may have to be any amount of fractions, different to be as close to perfect pitch as one can get.

Hope that helps ya a bit.
Don

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Calvin,keep in mind the chords and notes above the 12th fret are IDENTICAL to the ones below the 12th fret just an octave higher.DYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !

Charles Davidson · From: Phenix City Alabama, USA

Don,sorry,did'nt know you had just beat me to thatDYKBC.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC !

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

Don said

Only difference is, if you're off a hair up there, you'll be off a whole lot, whereas, playing farther down, if you're off a little, it wouldn't be nearly as noticable.

that is why i thought it would be good ear training
& bar control, the margin of error is super critical up there
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Just remember to reduce the vibrato movements as you go up the neck! Wink

Down low, you can roll that bar all over the place! But 'way up high, the movements must be kept much smaller and more controlled.

Also, keep in mind the sound fades a lot faster up there, so you have to adjust your volume pedal technique too!

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

That's ok Charles, I was adding to it, and now I have to edit the word "different" Spelling. Embarassed

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

so can i conclude that we are all in agreement
that it would be good to play above the 12th
for the benafit of bar control & ear training
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

I would consider playing well above the 12th fret to be somewhat advanced, given it takes more bar and yolume pedal control.

If I were you I would stay below the 12th fret for now and:

1. Learn the chord positions up and down the neck.

2. Learn the string grips that work.

2. Learn basic theory (progressions - 1, 4, 5, 2m, 6m, etc.)

3.Practice timing.

4.Practice.

Just my opinion.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

mike

i have been playing above the 12th fret
for some time now , i play entire songs there

my only question was : would it help with
bar control & ear training

yes or no
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

I don't think a simple yes or no will suffice.

Players are not at the same level. Some have inate ability, some don't, some know theory, others don't, etc. Some players advance quickly, others take years to just grab the basics. We're all different.

All things being equal, yes it will help.

But, I think until one can play well BELOW the 12th fret, one will only get more frustrated attempting to stretch that far, give the advanced skill it takes.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

mike said

Players are not at the same level.

sorry if you misunderstood this thread
i was asking only for myself... no one else
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

Calvin said:

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Definately DO NOT stop at the 12th fret. Yes, it will help with all of your technique, if you keep in mind the tips given by others so far. Not learning the upper frets early in your learning process would be like driving with 2 of your tires removed. Just be patient and don't get frustrated if it doesn't sound good at first. Making it sound good is your incentive to practice at it more.

Maybe take it in steps. Learn stuff to the 15th fret. When you are comfortable with that, expand to the 17th fret, etc...
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Jim Robbins · From: Ontario, Canada

Calvin, I find shifting octaves is a good way of working on intonation -- for example play something on a G at the third fret and then do the same thing at the 15th fret, back and forth -- it keeps you honest. The basic principle you're talking about I think is correct -- because everything is closer together there is less margin for error the higher you go, so it forces you to be more controlled. Another bar control exercise is to play up there and pull off to an open string in key -- e.g. do something in A on the 17th fret and then check against an open E string. Sort of like getting one of those drones, but cheaper.

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

Richard said:

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

i don't find it terrably diffacult
until about the 20th fret
thats where it starts going bad on me

also after playing on the higher frets for a while
it takes a couple of minutes to readjust to the lower frets
i tend to miss them at first, but then i get my feel back for them.
so i guess its just a matter of time jumping back and forth and maybe that will go away
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Mike Winter · From: Portland, OR

I didn't say, "Stop at the 12th fret." I was intimating that anyone having issues with the basics, should stay "down there" until they can play basic songs there, then move up. It's like playing a six string. You learn the open chords first, then learn to barre and move up the neck. The PSG is similar, only more complex. The neck is laid out mathematically, so after you learn/know positions, the bulk of learning is technique.

Don Brown, Sr. · From: New Jersey

Cal, when you do the Youtube recordings and then listen to it playback. What exactly do you hear?

And don't say something like as in a joke and a haha after it. Because it's not a joke that I'm asking you.

Because what you hear yourself, could tell you exactly where you are and what you need work on.

In what (at this particular time) stage of learning do you feel you are in?

Can you hear you're out of tune with the tracks or when you're in tune with them?

People are trying to be gracious to you, but I believe in being honest and open with anyone. Not telling anyone the REAL truth about anything is simply (in my book) wrong and only serves to hurt them, as opposed to helping them. Regardless of what it's about.

There isn't (to me at least) anything worse than hearing anything or anyone, who's not in tune. But there are people who are actually Tone Deaf. Many of them have no idea they are at all. Matter of fact, most who are, never know it.

Those folks would never know they had any problems at all, or at least not big problems in that area, but yet they'd never be in tune, and yet feel they were pretty close to being perfect pitch, and only needed a little more work. When in reality, they might actually be so far off in the real hearing department, that no amount of work could get them there.

To you, I would suggest you doing this. Either blindfold yourself, or better yet. Take a piece of cardboard and cover up your fretboard totally. Then play along with the same tracks. That is the way to tell if you have any problems with your hearing. You then would not depend on any markers telling you where you "should" be in tune at. It would then ALL depend entirely on your own ability to hear what you are playing.

The first thing you need to do is find out why your guitar is not returning true, from one change to another, as well as not pulling up to pitch the same way twice. Tune up open and then don't use any pedals and go back and record using all open positions, and we'll listen to what it sounds like, and be of more help to you.

Hope this helps.

Don

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

Don

do you remember when we talked on the phone?

you asked me to tuned this string then that one
i was nice and did as you asked untill you thought it was perfectly in tune remember??
well it was not,
as soon as i got off the phone with you
i had to retune it plain and simple it was WAY out of tune .
and before you say that i don't know how to tune a steel guitar know this
i have had the way i tune checked by a gentleman that has been playing for about 50 years
and he confirmed that not only do i tune right...the many times he has played my guitar
he said it was perfectly in tune.
now lets talk about my guitar
about a year ago maybe a little more, i took my steel back to mullen and had them go thru it
Dale Mullen himself told me my guitar was in perfect condition his words were : it looks like we built it yesterday
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Chris Buchanan · From: Macomb, IL

I think playing above fret 12 requires its own skill set. The technique is unique to that position. I think playing below the 12th fret has its own technique. So practicing above won't necessarily translate below. As far as ear training, that occurs everywhere on the instrument. In fact, you can do it without an instrument. Next time you hear music, imagine the chord progressions. If you mean bar control, try some blues progressions. Go slow, go for accuracy. Set a metronome on the speed at which it's perfect, then bump it up a notch every few days or so. Play at the speed it sounds best, even if it sounds too slow, because it's an exercise, not a recital. And I think your ears are fine. I saw your youtube videos. Practice smart, no shortcuts. Just put in your time and you'll get there.
Hope this helps.
_________________
GFI Ultra S-10, Nashville 112, stuff.

Pete Finney · From: Nashville Tn.

It seems like a bit of an artificial distinction to me; is technique and intonation on the 11th fret much different than on the 13th fret...? Or even the 10th and 15th..? Obviously along the whole neck frets get closer as you go higher; no matter where you are on the neck learning left hand technique is largely about using the ears and the eyes together, that doesn't change at any one spot...

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