Composition of Tone!

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

I find it interesting that although much has been said about the elements of tone, some chose to say there are those who have stated the total composition of tone is……. “all in the hands”.

I haven’t followed all the threads, but I know of no one who has said tone is “all in the hands”….I have said from the very beginning that tone resides in a combination of things…..IF tone was “all in the hands”, that would mean its possible for the hands to make all guitars sound the same, and we all know that’s not possible.

I believe most would agree, that when one plays a steel guitar and someone else immediately plays the same guitar, neither will have the ability to recreate the exact tone of the other. In truth, the only thing that could possibly change the tone in such instances would be……. “the hands”.

Meanwhile I continue to maintain that a specific tone entitlement does not consistently reside in any specific brand of guitar……how could a consistent tone exist in any specific brand of guitar when everyone playing the same brand does not sound the same? A "like" tone does reside in all name brand guitars manufactured in the last few decades, and each has the capability to provide the players their desired tone when the components of tone are applied in a manner consistent with, and relative to, an individuals perception and touch.

As I have said, there may be those who have the ability to identify a specific brand of guitar when they can’t see it being played, but I’ve never seen anyone capable of doing so consistently. A blind hog finds an acorn occasionally, but the defining word in this instance is “consistency” which implies one as having the ability to identify a specific tone anywhere, and anytime.

The following is what I consider to be elements of tone.

1. Amount of bar pressure on the strings.
2. Weight of fingers behind the bar.
3. Varying degrees of vibrato.
4. Pick angles.
5. Pick thickness.
6. Consistent pick pressure while playing.
7. Placement of right hand.
8. Configuration of right hand.
9. Volume pedal control potentiometer.
10. Electrical cords.
11. Steel guitar design.
12. Steel guitar cosmetics
13. Color of Steel guitar.
14. Pickups used.
15. String gauges and age of strings.
16. Amplifier.
17. Amplifier settings.
18. Sound effects utilized.

When playing any guitar physiological impressions are being sub-consciously visualized and formed. Many impressions are gleaned over time and they are consistent with experiences, both visually and audibly. For the best individual results relative to the guitar itself, those experiences should be consistent with ones pre-conceived perception of design, cosmetics and color.

Playing a specific brand of guitar recommend by someone else, or playing the same color someone else plays, may not be compatible with an individuals personal perception. Therefore if one is to achieve the sound they desire, each aspect of the components of tone should be considered.

Analyzing our own perception relative to the components of tone is critical to ones playing, because the better one feels about their tone, the better they will play. When a person follows their true physiological impressions it will enable them to acquire a specific guitar, design and color as well as amp and effects which is compatible with their pre-conceived perception and will allow them to play and sound their very best……..

.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Hi Reese,
I do need to read your posting several times in order to get the full meaning. I promise to do so and hopefully give a more thorough reply later.
In the meantime, I will be frank and say that I am surprised that you mentioned one thing - color - as one of the important items in your 18-item list. You even placed it on 13. I hope you did not mark down these items in order of importance.

I was more surprised to see items that you had left out of the list.
I will add these and see if you agree.

Quote:
The following is what I consider to be elements of tone.

1. Amount of bar pressure on the strings.
2. Weight of fingers behind the bar.
3. Varying degrees of vibrato.
4. Pick angles.
5. Pick thickness.
6. Consistent pick pressure while playing.
7. Placement of right hand.
8. Configuration of right hand.
9. Volume pedal control potentiometer.
10. Electrical cords.
11. Steel guitar design.
12. Steel guitar cosmetics
13. Color of Steel guitar.
14. Pickups used.
15. String gauges and age of strings.
16. Amplifier.
17. Amplifier settings.
18. Sound effects utilized.
19. Body material used
20. Neck material used.
21. Wood construction as much as possible vs.
aluminum
22 The benefits/detractors of aluminum/steel/brass in changer fingers and axle blocks

Sure I agree that I play better on a guitar whose color I like. But it doesn't stop there. I, and I am sure, many with me, like to play an all wood guitar as opposed to formica covered wood.
Formica belongs on a diner table top, not on a pedal steel guitar, In my opinion.

John Roche · From: England

so colour is a factor..
Carbon-Composite body, does that belongs to an auto

Al Collinsworth · Posted 26 Jan 2008 2:43 pm

John Roche · From: England

If it's not wood then it a bad guitar...let me see Emmons, Sierra , MSA,Carter bla bla...I think not..

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Formica finished guitars serve a very practical purpose, in that they can look as nice when they're 30 years old as they did when they were new. If I were playing on the road, tossing my axe in a bus luggage compartment (where the temperature can go from zero to 120 degrees during a long tour), you can bet I wouldn't use a lacquer finished guitar.

However, I do think that manufacturers have screwed up in two areas with the mica. First, they chose either ugly wood grains or plain solid colors, instead of using the more creative laminates, like those that were used on drums. (My "dream axe" would be sparkle or moire' blue with all gold hardware.) Second, they covered the bodies in mica and then attached all the hardware. I think a far better design would be to have the hardware mounted to the body first, and then precision-machine and attach the mica. That way, all the parts would get the same acoustic coupling you get with a wood finish guitar. It's my personal belief that the mounting of all the parts (keyheads, changer, and nut assembly) on the super-hard mica surface is the main reason for any major differences in the sound of the two.

Of course, as Reece says, all the parts of the guitar have influences (both major and minor) that come into play in the sound equation.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Here's a excellent piece of info from one of the masters, Mr. Anderson himself. I agree with everything he stated here. While each part may not directly affect every player, it certainly affects most. The color issue was a factor with me for years due mainly because I played a 66' p/p, rosewood mica my first ten years. After that, I always wanted a black mica simply because the majority of players on TV were all using them at the time. Now after having 70+ guitars over a 36 year period, it doesn't matter so much as to color with me anymore. My main concern is, does it stay in tune and does it sound like I think it should. I encourage Reese and others like Bobbe Seymour to continue posting opinions and there experiences here. As players, it's almost impossible to locate excellent info from the masters of PSG other than here on the forum. Thanks to Anderson, Seymour and the host of others that are to many to mention here for giving us all a small part of what they've spent a lifetime working on.

John P. Phillips · From: Folkston, Ga. U.S.A., R.I.P.

Here, Here !!! Wink

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You don�t stop playing cause you get older,
You get older cause you stop playing ! http://www.myspace.com/johnpphillips

Casey Lowmiller · From: Kansas

As usual, Mr. Anderson is right on the money.

Isn't the forum great??? Not only do you get to mingle with other steel players, you get to hear from pro's & living legend of steel.

Thanks so much for posting your list of things that contribute to tone. Maybe now the whole "all in the hands" quote will be an old & outdated phrase.

Casey
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Known Coast to Coast as
"The Man with The Plan"

ebb · From: nj

tone is in the brain, and how it compensates for all of the enumerated variables listed, as it uses the hands to realize the emotion it wishes to express with its command of the medium. the feedback loop of degrees of compensation seem to trump the more important command of the medium (using the musical language to elicit visceral response) in discussions on this forum. here are two of the more recent examples of members who understand tone

jerry gleason
http://uoregon.edu/~gleasonj/personal/music/Lush%20Life.mp3

bill hatcher
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?0hwcxqzcygm

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Nice convincing finished looking list. But, I would like to mention that the acoustics and size of area you are playing in dictate some value in the tone. And I am a believer in the tone characteristics changing with the high and low air pressure in your area. Me and our prior piano player noticed this his last year with us, especially with the combination of all instruments blending together. (Some nights you've got it, some you don't). I read another formite's post that noticed this as well, but he was able to explain it scientifically. I do know that baker's have the same problem with rising and falling cakes. And I am convinced that sound waves are affected also. A good experiment is to check the current forcast (high or low pressure)every time you think all sounds good or bad and jot it down to see a pattern..I'm not talking about everyone in tune, I'm talking about everyone having a good tone and blending well.. Very Happy

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

I have to say it is the feel for the instrument and amp ect...
By that I'm talking about the way you pick, your bar technique and how comfortable you are with what you are doing.

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

with all due respect Reese
i think you are leaving out the variations in speed different players use when engaging the pedals and knee levers
some will correctly say that this is just the timing of a song, but i think it also plays a part in the overall tone
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Brad Malone · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Mr. Anderson, I looked at your list and I did not see anything about "string separation" or distance between the strings, both at the nut and pickup. I would think that this factor may play a part in the timbre of the steel.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

In my opinion this subject, although extensively discussed, is one of the most important subjects we will ever discuss. After all, the bottom line question is, are we happy with whats coming out of our amps? If we like the tone we play our best, if we don't, we won't.

Tone is without question a matter of personal preferance, therefore tone is in the mind and ear of every listener.

I believe the bottom line questions are: 1)How does one define their physiological impressions, and 2) what is the best method of determining the parameters of each thing listed in the "composition of tone" so to allow each individual the opportunity to find the exact tone they are searching for.....

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

A very thoughtful and thought-provoking list from Reece Anderson, whose vast experience as a player and a builder has given him a lot of insight into factors contributing to tone.

I would suggest including one more factor- the material used in the fingerpicks.
Fingerpicks are the point of contact with the strings, and therefore the material they are made of is an important factor in the tone.

As I understand it, there are at least seven different alloys that are used for the "German silver" metal used in most fingerpicks. These different alloys result in different hardness of the metal.

The old, "pre-war" National fingerpicks apparently used a softer alloy than the alloy used in later versions. A softer alloy means more "grab" on the strings, resulting in a louder, clearer note.

I learned much of this from Doug Hutchens, who makes the "Roy's Own" fingerpicks for banjo-player Little Roy Lewis. Doug uses the same alloy used to make the old Nationals, and I have found these picks to be very satisfactory for pedal steel.

They are available for about $10 a pair from www.banjo.com, as well as several other sources.

Dave

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

If you ask fifty musicians their ideas about tone, you'd get at least sixty answers. Which tone is more complex, or displays more feeling---Albert Collins' Telecaster, with everything turned up to "10," except the bass, which was on "0?" Or Andres Segovia's Hauser, unmiked, in a quiet room? Why did the "new" MSA guitars tout composite fiber as the only way to go, and then start making wood guitars?
And Tommy Young believes he can improve the tone of ANY guitar, with his "mod?" People talk about the ultimate steel tone, and "the Blade," and Lloyd's Sho-Bud almost always get mentioned---and two more disparate guitar are not to be found! Reece, in your initial list of 18 items that contribute to tone, 7 are the direct result of the hands!
Tone is probably the most subjective thing we could discuss. We all have our ideal tones, even if we've never actually heard them. This is important---In the positive, it keeps us searching for "THAT" tone. And in the negative, it keeps some poor guy spending more time "playing" his amp, than his guitar! So tone is right here, in these hands, and right here, in these ears.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Calvin W....I appreciate your input and kind demeanor. I left out many things on my list because I believe its always easier to comprehend anything if its compressed and not scattered. That way, for me, the big piture does not appear to be overwhelming. After condensing something, I believe it can then be taken apart piece by piece and understood.

That to which you are referring is an important part of the overall playing perspective and something I would catagorize as mental organization relative to the physical response.

Brad M....I can remember years ago when we were experimenting with different string spacing, but slowly the steel guitar world migrated toward the 11/32 spacing because it suited most players.

Unfortunately for some like yourself, since the standard has been set by each manufacturer and guitars are designed to their specific spacing, it would be difficult and very expensive to have one special made to accomodate your specific requirements although your preferance is certainly valid relative to your perceptive impressions.

Dave M....I believe what you say to be something to be considered. I have been playing with pre-war National finger picks all my life, and when I put other picks on my fingers, they immediately notice a difference. Your link to replacements for the old National picks is I'm sure greatly appreciated by many, myself included.

Stephen G....In response to your question:

"Why did the "new" MSA guitars "tout" composite fiber as the only way to go, and then start making wood guitars?

Nothing changed at MSA relative to our commitment to the use of carbon fiber. As you can see on our website, we still offer the Millennium. The only things that have changed is, the material cost increased dramatically and it is now more difficult to obtain due to the very high demand of the material for everything from aircraft to fishing rods and gun stocks.

We of course still suggest the carbon composite for those who wish to have a lighter weight guitar, and one that will withstand far more bumps and bruises over time.

Your question further suggests MSA started making wood guitars for a better tone, which is simply not true. Hopefully someday you will have the opportunity to hear both our wood guitar and carbon composite guitar and you will consider doing an evaluation comparison while not seeing them played. If you would care to participate in an evaluation at Scotty's show, or any other show in which we are in attendance, I will do my best to accomodate you.

Further I'm sure you will agree diversification is a common business practice which is why we also offer other steel guitars such as our non pedal guitar.

Without question, tone is a volatile and passionate topic for most all steel players, and in addition its subjective....but I also know tone is one of, if not "the" most important things relative to steel guitar that we can possibly discuss. I believe a continued search for better understanding would be very important to us all, and it would be in our collective best interest to continue our search for the composition of tone.

There "is" an answer to the perplexing question of acquiring tone which could be of benefit to steel players for generations to come. I'm convinced it lies in first identifying that which comprises the components of tone, then exploring each component to determine a basis of parameters to best determine which is consistent with each individuals physiological perception.

One reason tone has been so highly debated is because those who are satisfied with their sound have the opinion their tone is in their guitar, therefore they may try to help others find the tone they are seeking by recommending the brand of guitar they are playing to be the best for everyone. I have no doubt most are well meaning and sincere when doing so, however I have seen many instances in which it caused more harm than good because it resulted in frustration and lost time.

To my knowledge, there has never been a clearly focused direction for making personal and informed determinations relative to tone for each specific individual....but it can be achieved when approached with an open mind and a focused effort.

James Collett · From: San Dimas, CA

Thank you, Mr. Anderson!
I don't know much (hence my signature tagline below Wink

) but I know that there is no simple answer to a question involving so much.
I greatly appreciate the gems of wisdom you post on the forum.
Thank you again!
_________________
James Collett

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Reese. I sent you a private message via the forum. If you have a chance to send me a regular email message in return I would be grateful. Just click the email box, not the PM box.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Reese, you're overcomplicating, or misunderstanding, my remark about MSA adding wood guitars to the line. I simply meant that y'all were offering tonal choices, i.e., diversification, as you stated. I wasn't implying anything about the Millenium. Implication ain't my style, anyway.
I was offering another contrast in tone, similar to the one between Albert Collins and Segovia. And the MSA lap steels are aimed at a different customer base, aren't they?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Is Reece EVER going to quit posting this same, tired, threadbare, disproven thread over and over again? He starts it...after many pages it doesn't go his way so he closes it.

Here we go again.

Reece, YOU are the one who has entitled threads with things akin to "Tone - it's in the hands"! Now you backpedal and say you don't know who ever claimed such a thing.

Yikes.

Now you're back to your comparison again - "pick out the guitar blindfolded", since none of them are THAT distinctive.

I'll remind you of what b0b posted on a previous thread:

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I find the "hands" part of Reece's list to be a very useful checklist of things to focus on while practicing. I find that I need to isolate certain aspects of my playing to develop them, much like a body builder needs to isolate certain muscle groups to develop them. I imagine that not all these issues are orthogonal to each other. However, I agree that one can separate them to some degree and work on them individually.

I also agree on the fingerpicks issue - I think they can make a significant tonal difference. I'm down to my last set of Nationals, and recent Dunlops seem to have changed, and not for the better, IMO. The link Dave Magram gave looks interesting.

Another issue that I have found important onstage in many situations - the voltage supply feeding the amplifier. Often, high-power instruments like bass on the same circuit can load it down and change my amp's tone production. As a result, I use a Furman AR-1215 voltage regulator all the time now. To me, it's just one less issue to think about.

Finally - I agree on the critical importance of the sound-ear-brain-hands-sound feedback loop. IMO, the total mental state of the player is a critical variable. This could include general mood, distractions, ambient sounds, room acoustics, temperature, and a whole lot of other things. For example, to me, the tonality of the same exact rig in a loud stage mix may be quite different than in a quiet room. Different compensation strategies may be needed for different situations. Has anybody ever compared playing PSG to playing golf? I think they're similar - they both require a lot of concentration and focus.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Don't forget about tuning. If you aren't in tune, you don't stand a chance of having good tone.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

I think Chris has an extremely important point. There have been times when my tone wasn't quite right. I would glance at my amp settings, but nothing had been changed. After listening very closely, I would notice that my steel was very slightly out of tune. After correcting the problem, my tone would come back.
Mitch

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