| Author |
Topic: Comparing a T8 to a pedal steel... |
Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 29 Jun 2007 1:50 pm |
|
I'm curious, more from a mathmatical point of view...
How many pedals/knees on a single neck 10- 12 string pedal steel would give you the options present on a T8 nonpedal steel? Of course, the three necks would have different tunings (duh), say A6, E13 and say a leavit tuning to really mix things up.
I don't think it would be many, but I certainly don't know...thanks. |
|
|
|
John Dahms
From:
Perkasie, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 29 Jun 2007 2:08 pm
|
|
I don't know how to compare the two because the approach to playing them is different (at least in my mind).
Somehow at a pedal machine I think of adding and subtracting to or from what is offered and at a table steel I am looking for what is available. I don't know if that makes sense but there is a different mind set in how I find my way around (maybe that's why I am so bad on a pedal steel).
On a T8, what you see is what you get. On a pedal job, you can't see some of it.
_________________
Time flies like an eagle
Fruit flies like a banana. |
|
|
|
Matthew Prouty
From:
Warsaw, Poland
|
Posted 29 Jun 2007 2:10 pm
|
|
Thats an interesting question! If you had C6, A6 and E13 you would need to have the following on the E9th neck.
A Pedal to get E13 sounds (B to C# change)
A & B Pedals to Get an A6th
and the lever that lowers the Es to get a C6th (you are short 2 strings to get a full C6th) Some call that the D lever others call it the E lever.
Thats all in the open position, except the C6th which is at the 1st fret.
M. |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 30 Jun 2007 5:59 am
|
|
Before I started to play pedal steel, I played a T-8 Stringmaster.
I had one neck tuned to an E, another neck to an A and the third neck to a C tuning.
On a double neck pedal steel, the A & B pedals basically give you an A tuning on the E neck and then you have the other neck for the C tuning. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 30 Jun 2007 7:54 am
|
|
The standard C6th pedal steel tuning covers all of the popular 8 string tunings and then some. For any specific T-8, you could probably get the tunings for all 3 necks with two pedals and one knee lever.
There are things that you can't do, though. Bar slants on adjacent strings are difficult on pedal steel because of the closer string spacing. The tone is considerably differnt because of the heavier pickup winding and (again) closer string spacing. You probably wouldn't have a handy tone control for doo-wah effects. And of course, you have to sit down to play it.
I don't think that a pedal steel is a very good replacement for a T-8. 
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
John Dahms
From:
Perkasie, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 30 Jun 2007 8:47 am
|
|
There you go, b0b's not afraid to say it.
_________________
Time flies like an eagle
Fruit flies like a banana. |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 30 Jun 2007 11:31 am
|
|
| You need a D10 Pedal Steel AND a D8 Non-Pedal Steel in your arsenal. |
|
|
|
Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 30 Jun 2007 8:06 pm
|
|
Thanks bOb, and others-
Interesting how it wouldn't take much hardware on a pedal steel to obtain the open strings of a T8, but how non-pedals sound different....for instance, you don't hear about non-pedal players using sustainers, etc.
I have no access to a pedal steel to try, but I'm realizing that the non-pedal is not just a 'simplified' pedal steel. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 1 Jul 2007 7:31 am
|
|
At first glance, it appears that a pedal steel is harder to play because of all the pedals and knee levers. In truth, the pedals are there to make the steel guitar easier to play. Playing without pedals is more difficult. Bar slants are much harder than pushing pedals.
For the first month, pedal steel seems to be harder than lap steel. As soon as you reach any level of proficiency, the lap steel is the more challenging instrument.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Dave Harmonson
From:
Seattle, Wa
|
Posted 2 Jul 2007 12:08 pm
|
|
| Just a couple of weeks ago a guy in a club asked me "what's the advantage of playing without pedals?" I said "advantage?" |
|
|
|
Bill Brummett
From:
Greensburg, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 4 Jul 2007 12:12 pm
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
The standard C6th pedal steel tuning covers all of the popular 8 string tunings and then some. For any specific T-8, you could probably get the tunings for all 3 necks with two pedals and one knee lever.
There are things that you can't do, though. Bar slants on adjacent strings are difficult on pedal steel because of the closer string spacing. The tone is considerably differnt because of the heavier pickup winding and (again) closer string spacing. You probably wouldn't have a handy tone control for doo-wah effects. And of course, you have to sit down to play it.
I don't think that a pedal steel is a very good replacement for a T-8. |
Some very good points Bob. However, the string spacing on my T-8 26" Stringmaster is actually closer than on my Remington Sustainmaster Pedal D10. And to add to the "misery", the 26" necks on the T-8 really make the slants difficult. (Of course, the trade-off is that nothing can match the harmonics of that 26" neck.) To really complicate things, the spacing on my 22" Fender D8 "Diamondhead is even wider than on the pedal steel. But the short neck and wide spacing make the slants very easy. |
|
|
|
John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
|
Posted 9 Jul 2007 8:04 pm
|
|
My Tβ10 Remington Steelmaster has the same string-spacing as my Dβ10 Derby, but; the Derby Scale is 24ΒΌβ and my Remington scale is only 22Β½β! To me, they both seem to have about the same degree of comfort for playing. With the PSG, I can imitate a lot of the Non-Pedal moves and sounds, but; the opposite is a lot more difficult, if not downright impossible! They are two different games!
_________________
<marquee> Go~Daddy~Go, (No), Go, It's your Break Time</marquee> L8R, jb
My T-10 Remington Steelmaster |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 9:14 am
|
|
3 tunings require the open tuning and 2 pedals, no more.
In fact two pedals would give you the open tuning and 3 others. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 9:22 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Somehow at a pedal machine I think of adding and subtracting to or from what is offered and at a table steel |
Now I think that my pedal guitar is just a very large multinecked console guitar,(Similar to a "Table")
Thats because the tunings I use and the copedent I have are not based on additive notes to the open tuning as in sus 4 (B pedal) or add 6 (C pedal), but as chordal changes for each pedal.
If you have the capability of a knee lever and/or a half stop .. Take the third and 7th strings to up a half step to A#
This change GREATLY increases the range of chords. |
|
|
|
Jody Carver
From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 2:41 pm Knee Levers a Must
|
|
| Hey Bas, looks like a nice setup, I have a mint 1000 since I was a Fender rep and I don't see how you can make those changes w/o a lever or two, and that's the question, where do I have a lever installed and by who? |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 3:01 pm
|
|
Sorry about going a bit off topic but I'll remedy that in a minute.
well Jody since you asked :-
Ron's number is 0151-608-4562 from outside the UK int+ 151-608-4562 and his address is :-
Bennett Guitars
85 Derwent Road
Babington, Wirral CH63 2LD,
United Kingdom
Fax +44 (0) 151 609 0464
Voice +44 (0) 151 608 4562..
E-Mail :- bennettsteels@btinternet.com
Here's the workaround to allow double flattening or sharpening on a "1000"
NOT cables on the knee lever just rods with loops and the old Sho-Bud halfstop barrell.
and
And there's more exampkes of his work here :-
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=104813&start=0
Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com
------------------
| Quote: |
| Steel players do it without fretting |
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buyββ> |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 3:08 pm
|
|
As I said earlier, 3 tunings require the open tuning and 2 pedals, no more.
In fact two pedals would give you the open tuning and 3 others.
In it's simplest form, open tuning A6
pedal 1 raises the A's to B the F#s to G#, and the lower C# to D = E13
Pedal 2 lowers the C#'s to C = C6 |
|
|
|
Jody Carver
From:
KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED
|
Posted 10 Jul 2007 3:41 pm Thank you
|
|
Bas, I learned much from you're desribing the mechanics of the use of cables.The shipping cost to UK would be quite costly, but I think I will do it, and thank you for your help.
Jody |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 11 Jul 2007 1:44 am
|
|
Jody, I've sent you a PM.
Baz |
|
|
|
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 7:35 pm
|
|
Bas very nice set up.
Is this what you played at the last Newbury Steel Festival?
Your show there was one of my favorites.
It was like a master class with music included.
Similar to what I would want to do to a old PP S-10
PP tone being similar to lap-steel to my ears.
Jody if you haven't sent your Fender off,
I imagine any decent Shobud tech could fit this in
with the pictures, and a LOT less expensively.
Looks pretty straight forward,
even if totally unique.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 8:08 pm
|
|
I was thinking about this topic and I am glad someone brought it up.
I know this is a non pedal forum, but I think we should make exceptions for players who use the pedal guitar, but do not play it like the majority of pedal players do today who play E9. The E9 players use the pedals for licks and such instead of approaching the pedal guitar as a non pedal player would. The non pedal player would approach the pedals as just a way to change to another tuning and then use the same bar slants and such as he would use on the non pedal, so I am completly supportive of the pedal guitar used to change tunings and being welcomed here on the "Steel with No pedals" section.
That having been said, has anyone experimented with a non 6th tuning that might give you even more possibilites of acheiving different tunings with pedals. I can understand using C6 as a base and working from there to other tunings with pedals, but is C6 the optimum starting point?? |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 8:39 pm
|
|
| If you use a pedal steel for just changing the tunings, that means that when you do you have to hold down the pedal throughout the whole number. Sounds like that would make your legs tired. Has anyone yet devised a locking device which would lock a pedal down ? |
|
|
|
Gary Boyett
From:
Colorado/ Lives in Arizona
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 8:58 pm
|
|
| Alan F. Brookes wrote: |
| Has anyone yet devised a locking device which would lock a pedal down ? |
How about a brick? two bricks?  |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 8:58 pm
|
|
| Don't some of the U12 guitars have a locking lever? |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 25 Jan 2008 10:26 pm
|
|
Yes, Sierra and Excel both make U-12 pedal steels with a lock lever that switches them from E9th to B6th. Maybe other manufacturers do too.
I like Gary's idea of a brick. 
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
