The Steel Guitar Forum

I've recently ordered my first PSG ( Jackson Steel "Xtreme", 3/5) and I'm wondering if I should have them set it up with a sacred steel E7th type copedant, as opposed to the more standard E9th. Since I'm a beginner and either tuning will be new to me, I'm wondering if I'm making it harder for myself to learn since I'd be a little outside the mainstream as far as the availability of teaching books, CD's etc...I'm intrigued by b0b's E7th sacred steel tuning but it only shows 4 knees, snice the Xtreme I'm getting from Jackson comes standard with 5 knees, I'm wondering if anybody would have any suggestions for what they'd do with the 5th knee? Any comments or suggestions very much appreciated...Thanks

what type of music would you like to play, doug?

Blues, rock, southern rock, along those lines.......

Here's my chart:
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I don't play that tuning any more but it was a lot of fun, especially for rhythm parts. It's not too hard to learn. There are lots of strummable chords. All of the notes are there for rock-slide lead lines with the open E7 tuning.

If the Jackson must be 3+5, put the 4th pedal changes on the vertical lever. Frankly, I bet they'd be willing to make it 4+4 if you asked. You shouldn't do without the G pedal.

I can't think of any obvious addition that would work well on a vertical lever. There's an awful lot in that 4+4 copedent.

Here's my E9th/Sacred Steel tuning. For a 3 pedal setup, eliminate pedals 1 and 5.

[tab]
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
F# ++G#
D# -D-C# +E
G# -G +A
E ++F# +F -D#
B ++C# ++C# --A -Bb
G# -G +A --F#
F# --E
E +F --D -D#
B ++C# --A -Bb
E +F
[/tab]

I currently have the E to F# raise on my VKL. This way I can combine this lever with both my LKL (F) or LKR (Eb). It seems like a good idea but I'll have to play with it longer to see if it's a keeper. Alot of setups have the Bb lower on the VKL so you probably can't go wrong with that. If I was going to change from my F# VKL, I'd put the Bb change on it.

Doug, don't be afraid of the sacred steel setup. As a beginner like you, I get more enjoyment from playing this setup because it's more forgiving. You can strum chords as well as pick them and it doesn't sound like that big of a deal if you pick the wrong string by mistake.

The sacred steel tuning is not that different from E9th and you can adapt most of the E9th tab to it, that's what I do.

And besides, the guitar's copedant is not permanent. If you don't like it, you can always change it to E9th yourself with a few minor adjustments. It's not hard. But, you will probably need some extra pull rods and pins, which you can order from the manufacturer later. Or better yet, tell them now to send you extra parts to change to a standard E9th setup, the parts are not that expensive and will come in handy.

My version of the SS tuning is identical to the E9th from strings 1 to 8.

What a great forum.... Thanks for the suggestions, it's given me some food for thought...Doug

Dan, I just checked out your website. Damn nice music!! That's the sound I would like to be able to approach....
Doug

The universality of the E9th is not to be taken lightly. Using something else will alienate you to a lot of available instruction and experiences. Almost immediately, you'll have very little in common with most players you chance to meet. You'll encounter the Sacred Steel tunings, with few exceptions, only if you move in those circles.

I'd do a lot of listening and soul-searching before I made a decision.

Donny Hinson wrote:The universality of the E9th is not to be taken lightly. Using something else will alienate you to a lot of available instruction and experiences. Almost immediately, you'll have very little in common with most players you chance to meet. You'll encounter the Sacred Steel tunings, with few exceptions, only if you move in those circles.

I'd do a lot of listening and soul-searching before I made a decision.

Don't worry that you won't sound like a country E9 player. Listen to the top 40 country stations. Your not missing very much. Most of the instruction is country oriented anyway. You sound like you don't want to play that any way.

Go with the Sacred Steel tuning. Rock out and the blues too!!

Donny is right that you need to do some soul searching, but I tend to agree with Bill. I think the Sacred Steelers have blown the doors open and introduced a very strong blues/rock tuning as a genuine alternative to the country E9 and western swing C6 tunings. If your main interest is blues/rock, with little interest in traditional country, the Sacred Steel type tuning has a pedigree that goes back decades on pedal steel, and back to the '20s and '30s on lap steel. Go for it. Chuck Campbell has some good Sacred Steel pedal steel instruction material. And frankly, I think most top steelers of all types learned mostly on their own, with little or no instructional material. Get the tuning for the type of music you want to play, and go to the woodshed.

The E9 tuning works quite well for rock and blues. On this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

I am playing a more or less standard E9/B6 universal. There are some things I did on the bass strings that are not available on a regular E9,but but everything I played that's not on the bass can be played on a standard E9.

I've never played the SS tuning so I don't know what it's capacities and limitations are and can't comment on it.

I play a 12-string universal E9/B6 tuning similar to Mike's, and even though blues and rock are substantial parts of what I play, that's not why I chose a uni. For a pure blues/rock orientation, it seems to me a Sacred Steel tuning is the most blues friendly of any tuning. Also, 10-string SS tunings have more low strings than 10-string E9, and many pedal steel SS tunings have 12 or more strings. So strictly for blues, I don't think anything beats an SS tuning.

The reason I play a uni is because of its versatility for all genres - country, blues, rock, jazz, classical, whatever. Tunings dedicated to a particular genre may have a slight edge for that genre alone, but nothing is as versatile for me as a uni. Right now it is not clear to me how versatile an SS tuning is for genres other than blues/rock. We haven't heard anyone playing multiple genres with an SS tuning. Theoretically, all the different main tunings, including SS, have all the notes, and so can play any genre. But practically speaking, each tuning has its strengths and weaknesses with various genres. The SS tuning is a little more of a mystery regarding other genres right now. But unless some young players with eclectic tastes master the SS tuning and try it in other genres, we will never know.

I don't know who this player is, but here is a You Tube clip of somebody playing blues on what we can assume to be a standard E9 tuning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVxZn0wd ... re=related

I've known a few steelers who decided to 'plough their own furrow', and devise their own tuning, when starting to learn the instrument.

Every one of them regretted it.

By the time they had realised that they were outside of the mainstream, their brains and muscle memory had become 'hard-wired' to the various idiosyncracies of their tuning, and they were stranded in the pedal steel twilight zone

Richard, that might be true for a completely unique personal tuning, especially in the past when traditional country & western pedal steel ruled alone. But since Robert Randolph blew the door open for SS pedal steel blues/rock, that would have to be considered a mainstream tuning now. For young players interested in blues/rock and not country & western, the SS tuning is a time-tested crowd pleaser. I know it is hard for those of us who grew up on country and country-rock to understand, but plowing through Way to Survive and Mansion on the Hill might be an unprofitable use of time for a young person with not interest (or gigs) for country music, but who has a driving interest (and potential gigs) in blues/rock. Imagine if someone took that country-first attitude with a young Robert Randolph. It would be like telling a young Jimi Hendrix that he had to start out with a jazz box learning Tony Bennett songs.

Imagine if someone took that country-first attitude with a young Robert Randolph. It would be like telling a young Jimi Hendrix that he had to start out with a jazz box learning Tony Bennett songs.

Great point David

The advantages of the Sacred Steel E7th are:

• Lower range, down to low E
• Strummable major, minor and 7th chords
• The high D string is in a more logical place than the E9th's D#

The disadvantages are

• No good instructional material
• The high D string must be raised to get a major scale
• Fast scale runs on the midrange wound strings are harder
• Fewer "jazz" chords (unless you add more pedals)

With my hybrid E9th/SS tuning you can use 99% of the instructional material out there with a minimum of translation on strings 9-10.

It's an interesting comparison. One thing I notice is that the G major position of the SS (P3+P4) isn't easily available in Dan's hybrid. I suspect that this position is very comfortable to people who have played a lot of bottleneck guitar. It's one of the main advantages of having the high D string inline.

Wow, I never thought of that as a G major position (I had though it was more for doing E minor chords. I have to try that when I get my guitar with the G lowers on it.

THanks, b0b!

Hey b0b, I'm sure I need to get me a book or something to start studying, but, I'm missing something here. If you hit pedals three and four on Dans tuning, I'm not seeing how that makes a G major...I'm seeing a C# and a F#, how does that fit into a G major? Being something below a beginner (I haven't even got my PSG yet), I'm sure I'm missing something obvious...
And Dan, You suggest dropping the pedals 1 and 5, for the three pedal set up, but then you don't have the G lowers?
I'm really getting confused and I haven't even really started yet. But thanks, you guys are a great help.
And Dan, I already said it once, but I'll say it again, your music is absolutely inspiring, not to overlook the music at b0bs site, or any of the web sites of the various members here on the forum, all very good!!
Thanks,
Doug
http://www.mag-ink.com/

b0b is referring the P3 and P4 in the SS tuning chart shown in the thread before Dan Tyack's copedent, it took me a while to figure that out, I saw the F#s and C#s also when referring to Dan's.

Thanks, Doug!

Scott had it right. The pedals that b0b referred to lower the G# strings to G and lower the middle E to D.