The Steel Guitar Forum

I hope it is okay to post this in this forum-- I don't really see a beginner's advice forum or anything like that.

I could use a bit of advice-- I'm looking for a good pedal steel setup to start off with. Will probably get something in the next week or two if I can find a good solution. (I'm interested in new or used as long as condition is good.)

Can anyone explain some differences between for example a Carter Starter and a ZumSteels Stage 1, or suggest some similar modestly priced options?

I'm not looking to empty my bank account here or anything, so cost is a factor, but if I really get to playing such a guitar, what is most likely to make me want to move up to a more expensive instrument ? (Should I be looking to start off with a more expensive steel up front?)

I probably sound a bit like an idiot here, but this is (at least for me) a good bit harder than understanding conventional guitars, basses & the like and these are also much harder to go and check out in person to compare...

One other option I might mention that is in the back of my mind, (and I know this is a long shot--) Any of you fellows (or ladies!) who have too many pedal steels around-- I seem to have acquired too many tandem bikes-- (I seem to collect them like many on this forum gather expensive guitars) I have a nice spare tandem mountain bike that's worth around $1500 or $1600. Especially if you're not too far from Atlanta, a trade might be possible if that strikes anyone's interest! (These bikes are kind of a pain to ship.)

Thanks so much!

Richard, take a moment to read the interviews. There is some advice for those who are just starting out.

www.ilovepedalsteel.com

JW

Welcome Richard. Are you absolutely certain that you want to head down this savage, twisted path? You mentioned in your post "I'm not looking to empty my bank account here or anything"...Oh don't worry, if you start playing this insatiable beast you will empty your bank account, mark my word you WILL empty it. The strange and unexplainable truth that most terminally jangled and deranged (I shamefully firmly place myself in this sorry group) pedal steel players know is that about 10 minutes after you buy your first on you will invariably want a second one, "just for a little bit different tone, or to try mica vs wood, thought A D-10/12/14 would sound a little better, or by judging from this forum...because it's black and they apparently sound the best.
In any event, ask lots of questions on the forum about the one you are thinking about getting and you will get plenty of answers. Most of the answers will contradict each other diametrically, emphatically and sometimes fanatically, but you will get answers.
Best of Luck!
Duncan

Hi and welcome to the forum. If you play a musical instrument now, I think you know the answer. Don't go out and spen good money on something that is of poor quality, or is missing some of the decent features. Go get a PSG with at least 10 strings and 4 knee levers. Single or double, your choice. A single 10 with E9 tuning, for country music will keep you going for years. Even then if you decide to get something fancier, it will be easier to recoup your outlay of money. I made that mistake years ago, when I found a 8 string with no knees, and regretted it a week later. I then went out and bought the same one I play now. It has kept me busy for way over 30 years, and still performs like new.

Hi Richard! As the other guys have mentioned you wnat to start out with a basic 3 pedal 4 knee lever guitar that will accomodate the E9th "Nashville" tuning as it is often referred to. They come up for sale on the forum and if you have any eBay experience, I see there's a nice Carter "Starter" at a very reasonable price rightnow that would get you more than started in the right direction. Good luck & welcome!
Actually, there's a couple Carter Starters, couple MSA's on eBay....

The Carter Starters look interesting-- how do they sound & play?

I do have some experience with other instruments and I guess that's part of my confusion-- I can certainly tell the difference between a "junk" (conventional) guitar and a nicer one, and I see about where the point of diminishing returns is with them, but there aren't $99.00 and $199.00 steel guitars stacked to the ceiling of Guitar Center as you make your way to the nicer ones further inside.

I'm an Audio Engineer (among other things)-- that's what I am formally trained as, and I can hear the difference between many grades of instruments, but I'm not so quick to judge it when I'm the player. Maybe I'm fighting too hard to make a halfway decent sound if I'm wearing my "musician hat"! LOL..

I can tell far more difference between acoustic instruments than electronic ones as far as conventional guitars too-- there is so much more going on with amps and signal processing gear that the source sometimes seems "lost" in the process (to some degree). So to me, that just adds more confusion to the first confusion with the steels-- anything you listen to is colored by the amps & other peripheral gear, so they're even harder to compare from one place to another...

It is somewhat less common now, but for years, you could go into most any studio, large or small, and listen to the gear over their NS-10M speakers to see what the sounds of the studio gear and the room control room were like, so you could tell what sound you'd be "printing" on tape with no color, especially from the "far-field" monitors. That's part of what I'm wanting-- some reference point in the process... (No, I don't plan to play a steel guitar over those by itself, I'm just making a point.)

To try and put it another way, I have a nice Steinway Grand in my living room that I love to play, but sometimes I enjoy playing a $1000-rage electronic keyboard in my studio as much or more than the Steinway. They both have uses & applications... On the other hand, I never get a big thrill from my kids' $100 Casio (unless one of my little ones is playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" or the like on it, then it is a great instrument indeed! LOL...)

Since it is going to be decidedly hard to go and hear a lot of these in person, especially with the same reference amp, speaker, etc., I'm pretty much trying to figure out which steel guitars (if any) are the "$100 Casios" (or worse?) that I need to avoid and then let my budget dictate what to do from there, and if my budget cannot support what I need, I'll have to wait until it does before I buy....

Part of this goes to the discussion of not buying before you listen & play on an instrument, but sometimes that is hard to avoid, and certainly, one needs to try and narrow the field before criss-crossing half of the US to check out every possible choice...

Does my quandary make more sense now?

Richard, most beginners ask the same question you are asking. In my opinion, here are some things to consider;

Decide how much you want to spend, if it's as much as $2000, you can have your choice of several new pro S-10 guitars. Any of them will suit you fine.

At 1400-1500 hundred, you will fine many used pro model guitars, any would work for you.

If it's about $1000, and you want a new guitar, your choices are the Carter Starter, GFI student model, and the Zum Stage one. Any of them would be OK, the Zum would probably hold the most resale value. That's important, you will probably want to sell it in the future.

If you budjet is less that $1000, you will need to look for a used Starter, Stage One, MSA or BMI.

If you buy a used guitar, no matter what brand, there might be some mechanical issues to deal with. You may be able to handle this yourself, if not, you will need someone with experience to help you.

Notice that I didn't mention anything about the sound quality of any of these guitars? Here is why; no matter what guitar you get it will take some time and work to get a good sound. The physical aspects of playing, picking, blocking etc. take time to learn.

So, I'd suggest getting an S-10 with at least 3 knee levers in good mechanical condition, that fits your budget. If you stick with it, there is a very good chance that you will want to get another guitar in the future.

The guitars to avoid are the older student guitars, the Mavericks, Red Barons, etc. any that have a fixed set-up and just one knee lever. Good luck to you.

Richard,

I also have just started playing PSG (about 6 months ago). I can't really compare the Carter to any other beginner steel since I've only used it. But, I got a great deal on a Carter Starter here on the forum from a fellow named Jerry Roller (you might look him up he may have more). I have been satisfied with it I think its a very good guitar for a beginner. It stays in tune very well...better than my strat haha. My only complaint is the tone isn't amazing or anything. It definitely works for a beginner though. I've even done a few recordings with it and it really doesn't sound too shabby. I have been just fine with the Carter Starter and I think you would too.

Josh

Richard & Josh,
You guys need to come to the show in Atlanta on February 10th. Not only to meet a lot of the local players, but you may find a used guitar for sale or get some questions answered from some of the players. See the post in the Announcements section. Richard, if you want to consider a Carter Starter, I can get you in touch with a local dealer for one.
Roger

Roger,
What's this show called? I might look into it. Though, I'd have to sell my Carter Starter to afford another steel...and save some more money. haha
Josh

Josh, I am not trying to steel any of Roger's thunder but the show is called the Northwest Ga Steel Guitar Show. It will be held in the auditorium at the Shrine Temple on Ponce de Leon Ave, in Atlanta on the 10th of February. This show is outstanding and as always I know it will be a fun time.

Richard- I purchased a Starter and when assembling it, I was disappointed with the construction. The screws were driven in crooked and brackets were carelessly drilled out to accomodate screws that did not appear to be correct for the non-concentric countersunk holes.
I emailed support and was told not to be concerned. "Just enjoy the guitar" I offered to send a digital photo, but was told that they were not interested in seeing what I felt was a problem. I considered just taking care of the problems with a quick trip to the hardware store, but it is the principal here.
I packed it back into the box and returned it to Musician's Friend. They cheerfully gave me a refund. I put 150.00 more out and bought a wonderful used MSA that I love dearly.
I can't say that I didn't enjoy playing around with the Starter and it did sound good and stayed in tune. It is possible that it would have served me well for a while, but I find that there is a BIG difference between a student guitar and a more professional model. I don't worry about screws falling out or the cabinet crashing to the floor.

Spend the extra and get a nice guitar that you will want to keep (or resell for what you paid). You can find parts for most production guitars and get help from forum members if you have any issues.

I hope that I have not offended anyone by sharing my experience, but the Starter "is what it is" and they are not interested in improving it. They could have a great product if they spend a few more dollars on basic hardware and accept a bit of constructive criticism.

I started with a Carter-Starter. But if I had to do it again, I would have bought me an SD-10 used pro-model. If I would have done more research, I would have gotten me one of the Jackson Blackjacks....

Brandon

Jump in there Frank, I don't have any thunder left! Hope to see you on the 10th.

Richard; one question which you may want give some thought to is which tuning do you want.

If I could start over again I would get a U12 for my first PSG. The U12 is a 12 string PSG with a "Universal" tuning which combines the standard 10-string C6 and E9 necks in to a single neck which has B6 and E9 tunings.

Regarding what Bill Moore wrote: I concur with everything he said except... I suggest starting with a U12 instead of an S10. Whatever you start with I urge you to start with a used "Pro" guitar instead of one of the "Starter" models. This type of guitar you can re-sell for what you paid for it and will be a better instrument.

The other thing that I suggest is that you find a good teacher to get you started and show you the nuances of the various techniques. Some things are just much clearer when you have a person instead of a book to explain and demonstrate things to you.

Richard, I have a Sho-Bud "The Pro 1" With 4 knees and 5 levers, red in color, on a scale of 1-10 guitar and case are both 9's at least. Thanks, Jack Palmer.

Richard,

I recommend that you check out the BMI (Beck Musical Instruments) website. Don Frtische builds a great steel and priced really well. You can get anything you want and it's a great steel guitar.

Terry Wood

Tim Kowalski wrote:Richard- I purchased a Starter ....... emailed support and was told not to be concerned. "Just enjoy the guitar" I offered to send a digital photo, but was told that they were not interested in seeing what I felt was a problem.

This is about the 6th or 7th post I've read in less than 2 months complaing about Carter's poor service and attitude. Accordingly, I wouldn't recommend a Carter anything to anyone. Until I begin to hear their attitude has changed, I will actively rail against Carter Steel Guitars.

I make a point of checking ebay daily to see what's for sale. I've seen many good units go out for under $1400. They're out there but you have to do your homework. If I were in your position I'd also look in the "Vendors" section (found in links) and start making calls and asking questions. I'd do the same thing on ebay. Ask the seller some questions. You'll learn a lot and meet some wonderful people in the process. I would start with Bobbe Seymour and just go down the list from there. Make it a point to be at the Atlanta show in Feb. as well. There will be some very knowledgeable people there.

Personally speaking, I'd avoid buying a beginners model anything. You'll outgrow it in less that a year. Listen to what these other posters say about it.

Good Luck and welcome to Steel Guitars Anonymous. There's no known cure for our affliction but hangin' out here sure helps

I finally purchased my first pedal steel a couple of months ago on ebay. Following the advice here, I opted for something better than a 'starter' model.

After watching what was available, I found an MSA Semi-Classic that had 3 pedals, 4 levers, and E9 tuning. Apparently, the Semi-Classic was made with only 1 knee, but this one had been modified by a previous owner to add the other three.

Based on my very limited experience, I would strongly recommend doing the same...a good, used, pro or semi-pro model, with 3+4 (or more), single neck.

I'm still struggling to learn how to play. I have a couple of good courses I've won in ebay and hopefully, in a couple of months I'll be good enough to be called a 'terrible PSG player', rather than just 'beginner' :>)

Good luck! And and a premature "welcome" to the world of Pedal Steel!

Bruce

To my tastes, used BMIs are the best deal I have seen in a professional quality guitar at a price. They appear here from time to time, typically for a grand or less. A 3-pedal 3-lever S-10 was on this forum last week for $600 + shipping - if I didn't already have one, I would have jumped on it. Some of the well-known dealers like Bobbe Seymour have them from time to time also.

I also think the older MSAs are a great deal, and good solid guitars. The lacquered-wood body ones are great, and even the mica-plywood body models are good, solid guitars. Bob Carlucci had a tricked-out wood-body S-10 with 4-pedals and 6 knee levers here a week ago - and a nearly mint red lacquer finish to boot, for $1300. It shoulda' been gone in 2 minutes, IMO. Again, Bobbe Seymour just had a couple of older MSAs that he said he would sell for a grand. I think they're gone, but I think it would be worth it to call him.

I haven't played one yet, but some good players are using the Zum StageOne, built by Doug Earnest. This is a "beginner" model guitar, at least in name, but a bunch of people like them. Here's a link to a clip Dave Van Allen posted using this guitar: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=125138 Sounds good to me.

Dekleys sometimes come up reasonable - they aren't made anymore, but are fine guitars. There's a S-12 extended E9 5+4 on the forum right now for $1300. I'm sure there are more. I haven't tried a Jackson Blackjack, but a 3+2 model is available reasonably, and has gotten rave reviews from some good players.

I guess my point is that there are a lot of options in a good, solid, professional-quality steel that doesn't have to break the bank at all. But it often takes homework + patience to score.

All my opinions, of course.

It seems to me Bobby Seymour said he had an MSA or two laying around his sore for a grand each. Tough to beat that I would think.Happy Trails!

Told you that you'd get answers Richard. I rest my case, at least I'll rest it after stating that I have bought several steel off the forum and all of them have worked out fine. I now rest my case.
Duncan

Hi Richard,
I have a red GFI up-graded student model in like new condition, no case. Has factory installed 3 flr pedals and 4 knee levers, & up-graded GFI II pickup. Same pu installed on some of thier pro models. Plays easy and sounds great thru my Session 500.It is an '06 model. You can go to the GFI web page and see a picture and read what they have to say about that model. Also it will give you an idea of the cost of an up-graded one like mine. I'll take $775.00 for it and will split the shipping cost with you. You can e-mail me or call me daytime at 512.916.5060 if interested.
Jerry Grant

Jerry,

If Richard doesn't take it let me now. I have someone in Jersey that may be interested,

Hi RC,
I would be glad to discuss it with you IF Richard dosen't want it. We'll give a couple of days to see if he is interested. I just don't need it any longer as I have 2 other steels. Great steel with the upgrades.

Jerry Grant