The Steel Guitar Forum

I finally got my hands on a Model B (actually BD). It has a string through body but 1 1/4 shoes.
My question is: What is the usual or best value of the vol. and tone pots and what value cap would give me the best tone sweep? I would imagine some of you have done replacements.
Thanks in advance for any help.
This may belong in the Electronics section, but I thought I would start here.

John Ely has a site with steel guitar wiring diagrams.
http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/instruments/diagrams.html

The Rickenbacker Bakelite 6 appears to use 2 100K pots. I would guess they are both audio taper.

I used CTS 250K, one volume and one tone pot (both are different qualities some use just tone pots for both volume and tone) and I installed a .047 paper in foil tone cap. It sounded a lot cleaner with heavenly highs after the old frozen and worn originals were replaced. Some of the experts here, and I believe them, say the tone cap makes very little difference in this application. But I went ahead and spent the $ on a quality vintage style just in case.

Here's the info from those that sell the caps;

Could these be the best signal capacitors ever made? Many amp builders and guitar technicians all over the world think so. Made by Jensen in Denmark, these paper in oil signal capacitors feature oxygen free copper foil and solid silver lead wires. These copper foil caps set the standard for a natural and realistic presentation of music. Yes, they're a little bit better than similarly constructed aluminum foil paper in oil capacitors. These are my personal favorite signal capacitors for my own audio projects; I've even got one in the tone circuit of my Telecaster.

P.S.

Rick Aiello has a wiring diagram for the Ric Bakelite's that he sends out or/and has on his site. I used it and it worked great.

Excellent. Thanks.

The Jerry Byrd Fan Club has a page that deals with Jerry Byrd's guitars, etc. Therein, it explains what pots Jerry used to get that memorable sound on those olde Hank Williams songs....what strings, and amps.

Good Luck to you!

By the way, I've found my 1 1/4 inch pickups are hard to distinguish from my 1 1/2 inch items, on the three CD's we made.

Thanks Ray. I'll let you know how it comes out.

Ray, any idea of the cap value? Nothing mentioned on the JB site.
Thanks.

Joe,

I just checked my junk pile of old Ric parts and see that after WWII many of the Bakelite's had a .050 tone cap. My 39' SH had some odd HUGE size pot and a tiny pot? Forget their values I think the big honker was 1 meg but it appeared that they often changed around and used what they had in stock.

Rick Aiello knows a lot about this.

Joe,

Email Bill Creller. He has taken apart lots of Rickenbachers. He can help.

pila@charter.net

The differences between the pre-war bakelites and post-war are usually quite striking. More than the differing body shape & PU, the wiring components are probably the most important issues that make the tonal differences. The older (HUGE) pots, caps, etc. have a lot to do with it, no doubt.

Anybody here ever put the older stuff into a newer body to know how dramatic the change in tones are?

The post-war bakelites are great in their own right, but it's that ancient Ricky sound that makes most players drool.
However, my Rick freak friend is baby-sitting my '48 B8 and (typically) makes it sound like a million bux.

A lot of tone is in the hands and ability of the musician. With Fender guitars what makes the older ones sound nice is the degraded magnets in the pickups. I suspect the same goes for Rics.

Also, a lot of likes and dislikes are in the owners mind. In other words, what everyone thinks is the popular way to think. Don't buy into older is better. Listen careful and make your decision.

I own a new Rick Aiello frypan for instance and the tone is awesome.

The hands/ability thing is a given.
But, the older silver plate Rick's vs the not-as-old post war Rick's tone is considerable. Even post-war string-thru's w/1 1/2" mags vs post-war w/1 1/4" mags w/hook-ons differ.
I've AB'ed the differing versions and there's no comparison. All are good, but can be way different.

Ron Whitfield wrote: Anybody here ever put the older stuff into a newer body to know how dramatic the change in tones are?

I have ...

Which is the reason why I have about 20 of the old Centralab pots and a huge assortment of sausage caps ... sitting in a storage bag (keeping them for historic reasons only) ...

All my Rickys have been fitted with new pots and caps ... and the magnets remaged.

The only "benefits" from some of the older pots is the "taper" ... and the "ease" of rotation.

Many of the newer log pots have a very "unfriendly" taper ... even though they are "audio taper" ... and can be quite stiff.

As far as the actual "set up" ...

The oldest bakelites (one's with no tone control), early Silvers (one's with no tone control) and some frypans (later prewars) ... have a very unique wiring scheme ...

They have two hots and two grounds ... and one set of leads goes to the pot and the other goes to the jack ...

Basically this results in the pot acting as a "Variable Load" to the coil ...

This causes a pretty dramatic rolling off of treble as the volume decreases.

Very unique ... but pretty one dimensional ... thats why I rewire even those ... more control.

Gary Lynch wrote: With Fender guitars what makes the older ones sound nice is the degraded magnets in the pickups. I suspect the same goes for Rics.

Gary, your "Sumo Belly" is undoubtedly ... the strongest magnet assembly ... in any pup ... on Earth

In the electric spanish guitar world ... the notion of "aged magnets" ... has a following ... but:

I have remagged over 200 magnets for folks ... Rickys, Fenders, Supros, etc ... and never once ... has anyone preferred the sound of the weaker magnets.

And with the overwhelming compliments about remag jobs ... and the popularity of replacement magnets such as my NIBros ...

I have to conclude that stronger is better ... in the steel guitars.

Ron Whitfield wrote:The hands/ability thing is a given. But, the older silver plate Rick's vs the not-as-old post war Rick's tone is considerable. Even post-war string-thru's w/1 1/2" mags vs post-war w/1 1/4" mags w/hook-ons differ.

I've AB'ed the differing versions and there's no comparison. All are good, but can be way different.

As far as comparing any two Rickys ... two prewars, prewar vs postwar, two postwars ... whatever ...

The variation in ...

1) The maximum magnet strength (function of the quality of the cobalt steel ... or lack of in the 60's models) ... can vary considerably ...

The greatest variation is found among the PRE-Wars magnets ...

2) The number of turns of magnet wire ... (DC resistances as low a 0.9 K Ohms and as high as 2.5 K ohm) ...

You'd be hard pressed to find any two that were the same ...

Kinda makes it a real "crap shoot" ... too many variables ...

Just my thoughts ...

PS: Joe ... I replied to your email with a nice diagram and some further info ...

Basically ... I have found 100K, 250K, 500K and even 1 Meg pots in Rickys ... 0.022, 0.030, 0.047 and 0.1 mfd caps ... in Rickys.

They seemed to use whatever was on hand .. :

And here I am, eagerly anticipating the arrival- tomorrow- of my dream guitar, an early, one-knob Rick bakelite. Now you guys have got me worried Ah, the bliss of ignorance

Very interesting thread.

Iain.

I guess what I meant to say is that in a Spanish guitar (Fender), the old vintage pickups that read below 6K, like 5.7K etc. seem to be what many players like. Many new ones are wound to read 8K and even higher up to almost 11K. The old ones that still work sell for a high price on eBay. And not knowing anything about it, that's all I know

Gary Lynch wrote:I guess what I meant to say is that in a Spanish guitar (Fender), the old vintage pickups that read below 6K, like 5.7K etc. seem to be what many players like. Many new ones are wound to read 8K and even higher up to almost 11K. The old ones that still work sell for a high price on eBay.
And not knowing anything about it, that's all I know

DC resistance ... measured in K Ohms ... is a wire "thang" ... not a magnet "thang"

There are 4 basic characteristics to "look at" in any pick up ... lets limit this to single coils (not humbuckers) :

1) The Magnet Strength - problem is, very few folks have a gaussmeter ... so they look at them in terms of "Magnet Grade" and "age".

IE ... Alnico 5 .. vs Alnico 2 ... vs Alinco 3 ... vs ferrite (ceramic) ... vs Neodymium-Iron-Boron

Fully charged ... vs "old" ... vs artificially aged (basically degaussing them with heat or bringing them into contact with another magnet ... repulsion will degauss)

2) The magnet wire diameter ...

Old Rickys, Charlie Christians, Bigsbys, my Potbellys ... use # 38 (large diameter wire) ... big lows, big highs, scooped mids

High output pups ... use a thinner wire ... # 42, # 43, # 44 ... higher the number, the smaller the diameter.

A greater perceived output per turn ... is found in thin magnet wire wound pups ... do to the abundance of "mids" present in these tiny wire wound pups (all modern RICs electric spanish guitars use the very thin # 44).

3) The number of turns ... "The real biggie" ...

DC resistance is only applicable for comparisons ... when the magnet wire is the same diameter and the "total distance" traveled (bobbins dimensions) is equal.

4) The "shape" of the magnetic field ...

Magnetic pole pieces vs ... slug pole pieces (bar magnet(s) feeding the slugs) vs ... blade slugs (bar magnet(s) feeding the blade) ... vs ...

An "air coil" (no ferromagnetic material inside the coil) ... IE: Fender Boxcar/Traps & Jason Lollar and my MRIs

Tall bobbin vs short bobbin ...

These 4 and a few other characteristics (usually associated with things like ... the amount of metal in the unit ... iE Eddy Currents) ... are where the real "differences" in pickup "tone" comes into play.

EX:

A 12 string PSG pup (big) ... wound with # 43 (thin) ... with turns above 10,000 turns ... with Alnico 5 magnets (strong) that are "inside" the coil ...

vs

A 6 string Ricky ... wound with # 38 (very fat) ... with turns of about 5500 ... with hardened cobalt steel magnets (relatively weak ... when compared to alnico, ferrite, neodymium) ... that "surround" the coil ...

Ain't nothin' "mojo" or "voodoo" about any of this crap ...

Just alot of variables ...

Hey y'all, thanks a million. Rick, you knock me out, man. I followed your diagram and got to hear this thing. Now I understand. What an amazing sound these guitars create. I can't believe the sustain. Can't wait to use it on some gigs. I checked out your site about adjusting the pickups and now I have another question; should the poles be even in the bobbin? This one has poles that start nearly flush on the bass and step up gradually to the treble. I'm talking about the amount of pole exposed above the bobbin surface. ???? At any rate this guitar sings.
Thanks again,

BTW, the pots in this one were 250K and the wax cap was .05uf.

Rick is sure right...no mojo or voodoo!!

Joe, the poles are set that way because the mass of the treble strings is less than the bass strings, so to keep the output (volume) the same across the strings, it's compensated by the height of the poles.

Oh yeah, don't attempt to" adjust" the poles, or you will be calling Rick for repairs.

Ha, Bill. I knew better than to mess with 'em. Was just making sure there wasn't something wrong. I've got it adjusted according to Rick's specs and it sounds killer. Maybe I should get the shoes zapped, but as for now 'killer' will do just fine.

My ricky BD6 (i got it from billy creller)... is a tone monster. Upon getting it, I put two new 250K pots and a 0.047uF mallory 150 series capacitor. I put the tone knob in front and the volume in the back (so i can do wah wah blues). wired it up with new wire and sprayed the pots with cleaner/lub so they ar enice and loose. The wiring for these is identical to that of a fender champion lap steel.

paired up with a set of UFO knobs from rick aeillo (very generous man) it sounds amazing and looks awesome.

Oh, it has 1-1/4" shoes and I have compared it to the 1-1/2"s and can't tell much difference. It has recharged mags too.

it is my number one gig steel.

to throw another opinion in the mix....

an old guitar with pots that work and old magnets that have been recharged is the tone for me.

so, i gues "old/vintage with improvement" is how i roll!

The issue concerning pole heights is another interesting topic. I notice that Jason Lollar does not promote the staggered poles and I leaned from Rick Aiello that stagger poles can actually be a detriment when it comes to getting the best tone out of your pickup. By the time you adjust the high string pole to it's best output, often the middle pole/poles are then too close to the strings. So if I remember correctly Rick Aiello grinds the poles down evenly so the pickup can be adjusted up to for it's best output. I believe he once had a place on his web site that discussed pickup adjustment. And that's all I know about that. But you may want to read this;

Link to article on pickups.

Comments on raised vs. flat pole pieces in single-coil pickups

I did extensive testing on the raised pole piece question with Red Rhodes* before he died. Red was a pioneer in many innovative developments in amplification and pickups. His pickups were known as Velvet Hammers, and originals are coveted by collectors and players all over the world.

He built the first Fender® pedal steel guitar with Leo Fender. He also designed the Groove Tubes Solo 75 and Studio Guitar Preamp with Speaker Emulator.

Red made the pickups in James Burton’s paisley Teles® and also the pickups in Clarence White’s Tele®. Marty Stewart now owns that guitar and I believe he still uses it all the time.

The only thing we ever found in all our experiments with raised vs. flat pole pieces was that a harsh spike in the tone was created when the poles were raised. By flattening the poles to the top of the bobbin the whole bobbin can be raised higher under the strings -- resulting in a more unified bobbin. The strings are picked up better by a combination of all the pole pieces instead of narrowing the focus to the individual magnets. It really is the bobbin as a whole that gives the tone. The magnets are just one component of the bobbin.

Flat pole pieces allow you to have the magnetic flux raised higher under the strings, in turn allowing the induced signal to come from a more even and constant string movement (interruption of magnetic flux) and thus a more even response.

*Red was also one of the great pedal steel guitarists. He was the No. 1 session call in LA for almost two decades.

I'm "sold" on blades now ...

Screw pole pieces (get it ... screws ... adjustable poles ... ).

Last week I built a "blade" bobbin ... to replace the pole piece bobbin ... that was in my Bronzepan ...

One day I'll build a "split blade" bobbin (so the gap between magnets isn't yolked) for one of my Rickys ... just for the heck of it.

As always Rick, thanx for the wealth of info/input.

Iain, I've only heard of one old Rickenbacker steel (a fry-pan, no less!) that sounded less than great, so 'don't worry, be happy', you'll love your's! But, as stated, there are differing degrees of tonal bliss from one to the other.

I'm anxiously awaiting a tape of bakelite tone examples from an old school bakelite guru, and fine steeler, Wayne Tanner (an SGF member) who has made a science of getting the most out of these steels (the 'mojo' is in his hands, as he's the best around in getting the elusive 'moan' out of them), and sez that as good as his awesome B6 is, his B7 is way beyond it.
So, it's a total crapshoot when it comes to old Rickys, for sure, but you can virtually never go wrong.

"One day I'll build a "split blade" bobbin (so the gap between magnets isn't yolked) for one of my Rickys ... just for the heck of it."

I notice that DiMarzio pickups for Telecasters (bridge position) has a split blade (two blades).