my approach

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

as some may already know i'm not a big fan of dry studying,
reading a lot of dry materail on chord theory bores me to tears
my approach now is to find the chords for a song that i have background tracks for, and play not just the song but to play around with the chords themselves.
looking for patterns and how i can repeat the chord up and down the fret board. i have been having decent success doing this .
but of course first i have to be able to find the chord. this is why i have asked how to find a couple of chords from time to time.

once i have found the chord and have played with it a couple of days, it is pretty much mine. i might not know every veriation of it, but i can use it at will from that point. i can even hear that chord in a song with someone else playing after a few days of working with it
doing it this way (1) keeps me from getting bored
(2) let me build up my chord base that i know and can draw from.
i am well aware that many of you will not agree with my approach but thats ok.... because its what is working for me ( no one else... just me )

ok guys, let me have it
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

No problem at all Calvin. Chord theories bore me too. It's up to the individual isn't it? In 37 years of pedal steel playing I can count on one hand the times I've refered to a book, and likewise on reading tab. I've always experimented on finding the chords I need and their various configurations up and down the fret board. Regards instrumentals, once I know the tune, and chords, I just do my own thing. I "MAY" copy some moves of the original player, but only very slightly. I believe in trying to play "me" and not somebody else.

Micky Byrne United Kingdom www.mickybyrne.com

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Calvin - as long as you're opening up a thread about this, I'll say something.

First - I think there is nothing wrong with your approach of learning music by learning songs. I know some very good musicians who work this way. As they learned more and more songs, the pieces of the theoretical pie began to assemble themselves and eventually became second nature. I also don't necessarily think a very analytical approach is necessary.

But second - with that said, I think most people, including me and the people I mentioned earlier who learned primarily by learning songs, can learn an instrument like guitar or pedal steel much faster if - fairly early on - they learn the positional patterns on the guitar and their significance to the 12-tone western musical scale. I think this is doubly helpful on pedal steel because of the mechanical and mathematical nature of the way the pedals and levers manipulate the chords.

You don't need to understand any complicated mathematics or music theory to see the basics principles here. To figure this out, there are three fairly simple aspects.

First, for open strings and each pedal/lever combination you want to use, you need to know the chord. For example, on E9 neck, using the main open chord (fret 0) strings - 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 - it's E. When you engage pedals A and B, it becomes an A, which is 5 half-tones, or a 4th interval, above E. Compare that with just playing no-pedals/levers but 5 frets above, you'll see it's true. Similarly, just the A pedal gives a C#minor, which is 3 half-tones or a minor 6th interval below E, B pedal alone gives an Esus4, which is an E chord with the G# third note replaced by the 4th tone A. B+C pedals give an F#minor, which is a minor chord 2 half-tones or a 2nd interval above E. You can do this for all the pedal and lever combinations you want to use.

Second - once you know the chords on the open strings for each pedal/lever combination you want to use, now you need to be able to see how those change when you move up a prescribed number of frets. First, start with the open strings - you need to know how those change as you move up each fret - remember, each fret is a half-tone, and there are 12 of them in the western musical scale. It's simple, you probably already know this - fret# 0=E, 1=F, 2 = F#/Gb, 3=G, 4=G#/Ab, 5=A, 6=A#/Bb, 7=B, 8=C, 9=C#/Db, 10=D, 11=D#/Eb, and 12 is back to E, 13=F, and so on. This is just like clock arithmetic, but the first 12 fret positions are numbered from 0 to 11 and the notes start repeating themselves at 12, 24, and other multiples of 12. You can do exactly the same thing with for any pedal/lever combination chord - just move it up one half-tone for each fret, and you can now map out each chord. For example, A+B pedals map to fret 0=A, 1=A#/Bb, 2=B, 3=C, 4=C#/Db, and so on, up to fret 12 where you get back to A. If you apply this process to any open-string pedal/lever combo, will get you any chord name you want.

The third thing - and for me, perhaps the most useful - is to be able to see the very simple mathematical pattern of chord relationships on the fretboard and how they relate to the different types of chord progressions in songs. I think understanding chord progressions and the interval relationships between those chords is essential if one is to move past playing tabs and copying other people.

For example, the most common and simple types of chord progressions involve about 5 chord intervals - the 1 chord, or root - the root is the key you're playing in; the 2 chord (major or minor), or 2 frets above the root; the 4 chord, or 5 frets above the root, the 5 chord, or 7 frets above the root, and the 6 chord (major or minor), which is 9 frets above the root, or equivalently 3 frets below the root. Note that 9+3=12, the number of frets to the 12-tone scale. You can do that with any of the other intervals I mentioned - for example, the 5th interval is 7 frets above the root or 5 frets below the root, and 7+5=12. Same with all the others.

So now imagine that you're playing "Your Cheatin' Heart" in the key of G, which is your root chord. The no-pedals/levers G is on fret 3. The chord progression, in terms of intervals where 1=root, 2=2nd interval, 4=4th interval, and so on, is /1,4,5,1/ /1,4,5,1/ /4,1,2,5/ /1,4,5,1/. If you understand the interval relationships between the frets, and then how the pedals change the open-chords, you should be able to find appropriate chords all over the neck using various combinations of no-pedal/lever and pedal/lever combinations. Once you understand the basic principles on simple songs, you can start to do this for more and more complex songs.

I don't think you need to learn this all in one big chunk by reading a bunch of music theory books. If you can figure out any piece, it will help. IMO, how you figure this stuff out is up to you. There are tons of people here who can help you understand the chord progressions for the songs you're playing now, and I'm sure would be happy to help. Again, you don't need to learn everything at once or be very theoretical about it. If you just recognize that there is such a theory that's worth learning, you can practice it each time you learn a song, and add to your vocabulary. After a while, if you apply this to each song you learn, I'll bet you'll start to see the bigger picture.

Think about it - it's your call entirely. If you decide it's worth it to try to understand some of this stuff, don't be afraid to ask for help. I assure you, you don't look stupid to me asking such questions. I'll bet you don't need much help once you get going, but getting the ball rolling can be tough.

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Dave M.

I think that is one of the most thought out, well explained passages on basic chord theory I've heard in some time.

For myself, even though I've been playing music all my life, I know I'm very, very weak on music theory. As I read your post I was realizing I had learned this many years ago but never thought of in this way.

If you had asked me the scale, or the position of the chords I could have told you, but if you had asked about intervals,,not realizing that I knew, I could never had answered your question.

Even though your post was directed to Calvin, thanks for a well explained and thought out response.
Very Happy

Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

after about a year my teacher started telling me to do it this way, but the plain truth is at that point i was afraid to even try to play with the sound tracks. i just didn't think i was anywhere near ready for that so i kept pluging away at the tabs....and getting nowhere ..the man kept telling me " Calvin get Jeffs tracks and play with them"
when i reached a point where i figured that i had nothing to lose , i tried it and have been making progress ever since. i wasted a lot of time simply because of my own unfounded fears
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Calvin,

Don't let fear hold you back, just jump in and git-er-done.

If I'd waited until "I" thought I was ready to play I'd still be sitting in my bedroom.

Of course there was some shall I say Awkward times? Laughing

Really just plain bad times! But people actually pay me [some what] to play steel now. Very Happy

When in doubt about something, go back to basics. Very Happy

Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Ken Higgins · From: Canyon Tx

Cavin, I'm at about the same place you are in the learning curve. I believe Dave's post it full of useful information. Just setting here thinking about the fretboard and applying Dave's comments makes it seem logical and not so overwhelming. Thanks for the post Calvin and the great answer Dave !!!!

Delvin Morgan · From: Lindstrom, Minnesota, USA

Calvin,

I really like this kind of thread, to us relatively newcomers it is great info. And thanks to you who have the guts to ask questions, many others can also learn. Some of it might be old well known information, but a lot is new to me. So, Calvin keep it up. I always look for your posts, I never thought of them as trivial. Have great New Year.

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

Lots of good info on this thread too Click Here

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yeah, Calvin. Don't be afraid to fail. Learning comes from the right kind of failure and enough humility to try something different if one approach doesn't work.

There's no "quiz next period", nor any midterm or final exams, and nobody here to reproach you for not getting it the first time. I live in that world - I teach college - and I really think all that stuff very often gets in the way of learning. You're learning for the right reason - you just want to know how to do it because you love it. Cast your fears out the window, be adaptable, and don't get wedded to any particular approach if it doesn't work for you after a reasonable trial. Then, with that mindset, just plug away, and I'll bet it just comes right along. Maybe two steps forward, one step back, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

I agree that there was a lot of useful info on those other threads.

Dean Salisbury · From: New York, USA

Well a lot said here, that in my thread "playing by ear" makes a lot of sense. To me. However a lot of what you said concerning pedals I have no clue as I don't play a pedal steel. but I did copy your entire msg.

To me in listening to a song that I want to play. I have to start with the key of the song! If I cannot figure out the key, I'm lost, but that is just me! However, when I cannot figure out the key, then I just go 1 chord at a time! Then on a later day, the key of the song comes to my mind! lololol

For example with unchained melody, it appears steelers play it in the key of G. I personally like it in the key of C, so Im working on tabbing it in the key of C.

and now working on the melody. My next job will be then taking each chord and trying to figure out what notes to play within the chord. Got most of the melody figured out on the 4th string. Now being I don't know where the notes are on my 6 stringer. I've got to look at my note chart for each chord, and see where the notes will play in each chord. This will take me some time. But that is the only way I know how to do it! Yes, I could just go from note to note and eventually find them. But for me its easier to figure out a song on 1 string, then to move to the chord position and look at my note chart and then try to adapt!

lololol not the fastest way to figure out a song! But was never taught a better or faster way.

Great info!

Dean From NYC!
_________________
I'm new and just learning - I know nothing!

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

what i want to do is put a clip of me playing something on youtube and let you guys see and hear whats going on with my playing
BUT i have one BIG PROBLEM
i get extremely nervous when i know anyone will be listening to me
but thats another thing for me to beat. i'll never understand how some of you can play in front of others ...its just not in my nature
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Calvin,

My hat is off to you, Sir. You have allowed a multitude of New and Not So New steel players, that need this information, reap the rewards afforded by the answers to your questions. My hat is off to you for having the fortitude you've shown in asking them and then for not being scared off by the answers and shear amount of information those questions prompted.

Dave,

Thank you for your indepth and understandable explanation of this often times, confusing subject. I think most could gain from going over the basics again and again. And as has been pointed out, we each learn differently and at different speeds and for me, this has caused gaps in my steel learning journey that I have had to try to fill by studing material missed or neglected.

So to Dave, Don, Greg, Mickey and so many others that freely share this wealth of knowledge, Thank you. And to B0B, you have blessed us with this site, I can't thank you enough. DS

John Roche · From: England

Calvin, thats a great idea, get something recorded . It will help the guys here to see where your at, anything will do , just playing along with a track would be fine.
Maybe your better then you think .. John

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

John
i am going to do it as soon as i get my nerves to settle enough.
i have a nerve condition that runs in my family that is amplified when i know i am being watched/heard
i even went as far as setting up the camera yesterday but even with the lens cap on, i still could not get settled enough to play
but i will get it done

Dave
its good to hear that others are getting something out of my posts....even when i sometimes get beat up haha
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

John Roche · From: England

Calvin , Just set the camera up and record something,
if you don't like it erase it, or press record and play the **** out of the guitar untill your nerve thing is gone. Play back and you may be surprised at what you got..... if you don't I'll come round your house and beat you up..LOL

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

john
its on youtube now i have to figure out how to create a link to it
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

John Roche · From: England

Just copy the URL of the page on youtube where the song is and paste it into one of your replys
click on the tab URL at the top on the reply box before you paste the link. what did you record has it got a name..

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

richard burton · From: Britain

Calvin,
is this the one ?
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRfPIf6oLA

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

Calvin, I just watched the video that Richard linked of you above. It looks like you are already developing a recognizable style.... That's what it's about man... Bravo.... Every time I watch someone play steel I take away an idea from it. Thanks for the You Tube and keepem coming. You will be able to watch your work in progress as time goes by. Very Happy

richard burton · From: Britain

Calvin,
I feel that I can offer you some advice, but please don't get offended by anything I say.

You need to work on your timing.
It might be nerves, but you are coming in to the chords too early.

Listen to the song as it is playing, counting 1 2 3 4 in your head, and don't come in to the chord until you are on the 'One' beat, except on the '1982' part, where 'nineteen' is chord D, on the 'one' beat, and 'eighty' is chord E, on the 'three' beat, and 'two' is chord A on the following 'one' beat, (my interpretation only, if I am wrong someone please put it right, as I don't want to spread misinformation)

One of the other things that I notice is that it sounds like you are not pressing the pedals right down (are you playing on deep carpet?), as there are some tuning issues.

I hope you take this as positive criticism, I don't mean to 'diss' you in any way.

Well done for posting your clip Very Happy

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

Richard

thanks for watching it , i totally agree i do need to work on my timing .nerves were only partly to blame, the rest is i just need to work on it more
and yes the carpet is a deep pile carpet
also lately i have not been totally satisfide with my tuning but i can't seen to be able to put my finger on what the problem is , i use Jeffs Chart and everything according to the tuner is dead on
_________________
proud parent of a sailor

Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!

Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

These are all things that you will grind through. The chord timing will also come with practice. And by the way, If you were playing a Willie Nelson song nobody would have questioned the timing issue. ha ha Wait until you play on stage the first time. You will probably throw up your dinner.... "I did".!!

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