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Topic: Chord hits in "So What" |
Billy Wilson
From: El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 4:01 pm
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The chords that answere the melody in this Miles tune sound like minor 7th with a sus 4. I can't seem to find this on my C6th neck. Any ideas? |
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Jim Robbins
From: Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 4:33 pm
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Try pedal 6 [the one that gives you the IV9 chord by raising string 2 and lowering string 6] and play strings 2, 3 and 5 for a 4thy voicing. I'm not sure it's quite what Miles arranged but then I am sure there was no pedal steel on the original anyway. If you start in D minor, play it at fret 14 (gives you A-D-G from the bottom up), slide down to fret 12 (G-C-F).
Great idea. "Kind of steel". |
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Jan Jonsson
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 5:17 pm
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Here's an explanation of the 'So What' chord (from Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_What_chord
On the C6 neck, you can play the whole five-note chord on strings 10, 9, 8, 6 and 5 by lowering string 6 one half-note (the pedal 6 E->Eb lower) and raising string 8 one half-note (the A->Bb raise).
-- Jan |
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Jim Robbins
From: Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 5:37 pm
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Jan's voicing sounds right to me. Unfortunately, the only way I can get it is by using both feet, half-pedalling on pedal 8, and strumming with my thumb or using my little finger. To which I guess the appropriate reply is, "so what?"
Is Buddy Evans out there? |
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Joe Calabrese
From: New Jersey, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 7:14 pm Re: Chord hits in "So What"
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Billy Wilson wrote: |
The chords that answere the melody in this Miles tune sound like minor 7th with a sus 4. I can't seem to find this on my C6th neck. Any ideas? |
Billy,
Some cool trivia concerning "So What" by Miles.
Miles really dug James Brown. He admitted in an interview some time before he passed that those chord hits you speak of were lifted from James's tune "Cold Sweat" I thought that was pretty darn cool.
Joe _________________ Peace,
JC
http://www.obsmusic.com/
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=124287 |
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Russ Wever
From: Kansas City
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 7:59 pm
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Joe ~
Your trivia intigued me to look up Cold Sweat, which gave this:
In an interview with Down Beat magazine, James Brown bandleader Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis described the circumstances of the creation of 'Cold Sweat':
After one of the shows, one night somewhere, James called me into the dressing room and grunted a bass line of a rhythmic thing, which turned out to be "Cold Sweat." I was very much influenced by Miles Davis and had been listening to "So What" six or seven years earlier and that crept into the making of "Cold Sweat." You could call it subliminal, but the horn line is based on Miles Davis' "So What." I wrote that on the bus between New York and Cincinnati. The next day we pulled up in front of King Records studio, got off the bus, got in the studio, set up, and I went over the rhythm with the band. By the time we got the groove going, James showed up, added a few touches--changed the guitar part, which made it real funky--had the drummer do something different. He was a genius at it. Between the two of us, we put it together one afternoon. He put the lyrics on it. The band set up in a semicircle in the studio with one microphone. It was recorded live in the studio. One take. It was like a performance. We didn't do overdubbing.
~Russ |
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Billy Wilson
From: El Cerrito, California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 8:00 pm
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I totally believe that about JB and Miles. I also heard he started his first jazz rock band after seeing Sly Stone tear up a festival somewhere.
Thanks for the ideas fellows. I ended up using the top three notes of the voicing. So my first chord is (high to low) B G and D which is a simple major triad but sounds cool with all the rest. |
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Jim Robbins
From: Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 8:15 pm
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Interesting connection with "Cold Sweat". My respect for Wikipedia has gone way up since they got the changes for "So what" right, so you may be interested in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Sweat. It says Pee Wee Ellis (James Brown's arranger)got the changes for Cold Sweat from Miles and not the other way around. I have to admit, much as I like the idea of Miles copping James Brown charts, that seems likely given that Kind of Blue was released in 1959 and Cold Sweat came out some ten years later.
Of course, that's far from saying that Mr. Davis would not have said he took it from Brown. |
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Jim Robbins
From: Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 8:19 pm
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Whoops, look like Russ beat me to it while I was doing my research. Boy, musicology is a whole different ball game since they came up with these computers and all. |
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John Steele (deceased)
From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 9:40 pm
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The two chord shots in "So What" are initially E minor and D minor.
The E minor is voiced, from the bottom up,
E A D G B
You will notice that the bottom four notes are a stack of fourths.
The D minor chord which follows is voiced exactly the same, down a whole tone.
D G C F A
When you make a study of the chord, it's not only E minor, but a host of other things, including CMaj7
and FMaj7#11.
The theory behind the tune, and all of the pieces on "kind of blue", are that the soloists are to solo using only the notes from the modes represented by the chords.
You'll also notice that, if the "home chord" is the second chord, D minor, which comes from the C major scale (D Dorian), that the notes making up the initial E minor chord also come entirely from the C scale.
Another piece on the recording which follow the same thinking is more familiar to steel players:
Freddie Freeloader. The melody line of this blues head moves in parallel motion as well, just like the two "shot" chords in "So What".
-John
Last edited by John Steele (deceased) on 12 Dec 2007 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Steele (deceased)
From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 9:43 pm
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I forgot to add, these stacked fourth voicings are one of the reasons people arrange to have a D string between their 7th and 8th strings C and E on their C6 neck.
-John |
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Dean Parks
From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2007 9:51 pm
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Very interesting history, two of my favorite records, and I had wondered about how they came about recently.
Jim, nice one (Buddy Evans)
To me, the chords sound like a 4 chord, then a 1 minor... the parallel makes them simple, and cool. |
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John Roche
From: England
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Joe Calabrese
From: New Jersey, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2007 2:14 am
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Russ Wever wrote: |
Joe ~
Your trivia intigued me to look up Cold Sweat, which gave this:
In an interview with Down Beat magazine, James Brown bandleader Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis described the circumstances of the creation of 'Cold Sweat':
After one of the shows, one night somewhere, James called me into the dressing room and grunted a bass line of a rhythmic thing, which turned out to be "Cold Sweat." I was very much influenced by Miles Davis and had been listening to "So What" six or seven years earlier and that crept into the making of "Cold Sweat." You could call it subliminal, but the horn line is based on Miles Davis' "So What." I wrote that on the bus between New York and Cincinnati. The next day we pulled up in front of King Records studio, got off the bus, got in the studio, set up, and I went over the rhythm with the band. By the time we got the groove going, James showed up, added a few touches--changed the guitar part, which made it real funky--had the drummer do something different. He was a genius at it. Between the two of us, we put it together one afternoon. He put the lyrics on it. The band set up in a semicircle in the studio with one microphone. It was recorded live in the studio. One take. It was like a performance. We didn't do overdubbing.
~Russ |
Thats really cool Russ. Thanks, for getting the time line correct. Could I have been listening to a James Brown interview where he said he liked and was influenced by Miles ?
Anyway, once the connection was pointed out to me (some yrs ago) my appreciation for both tunes grew.
I was lucky enough to see Miles 2x's in my life. What an honor.
Joe _________________ Peace,
JC
http://www.obsmusic.com/
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=124287 |
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Richard Damron
From: Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Dec 2007 9:06 am Re: John Steele's post
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Haven't been in my PC in several days. Was going to post on this topic until I read John's explanation. His is better than mine. Accept his explanation as gospel since it's on the money. By the way - the chord is a simple bar chord on 6-string. Been using it for decades.
Thanks, John.
Richard |
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