The Steel Guitar Forum

This may sound like a stupid question.We hear guys tuning their E's to 400 and some tune them sharp
(Jeff Newman way).If 2 players play together on a set,one is not in tune with other,I would think or not?If one's Es is 400 and the other's is sharp.
I was just wondering what most of yous out there use on your steels.I was putting new Jags on my Mullen RP and I started thinking about this.I would like to know others' thoughts on this subject.

i have used Jeffs tuning chart from day one , in the past couple of days i have been tinkering with a couple of other ways to tune , but so far i still like jeffs the best

If it makes sense to tune the way the instruments you play with tune, then do it.

A lot of lower shelf guitar players set their intonation "right on" and they are then mostly always sharp when the skin hits the wood.

If you're stuck with one of those that always play sharp, you might as well give in. I could never bring mysef to do it, and just outlived the worst of them.

MOST NEW ELECTRONIC KEYBOARDS are set right on. Ask to check the one you are playing against out with a tuner you trust. That way you know what you're up against unless they "flange" the notes, then all bets are off.

I take it you're comfortable with your tuning "system", and you're just asking about the Main Frame, the E's.

Don't hesitate to tell a lower shelf guitar player that they're squeezing their notes sharper. You're better off, and you're doing them a favor.

Also, if anything, your notes after the initial string attack jump 5 cents higher, so tuning to E usually takes up some of the slack if you're playing with "sharpies".

Many many PSG players, the less vocal about their "systems" tune everything exactly "straight up". Many good threads about that.



EJL/HFLE

I assume you meant 440 reference...There is a lot of good info on the current thread about understanding tuners below...
Moon

If you think about it, the reference pitch for your Es (or your As, if you tune with your pedals down) mostly only affects your tuning when you play open at the nut. Once the bar hits the strings, any accompished player will automatically adjust with their ears, and whether the open strings are tuned to a reference a couple of Hz one way or the other is irrelevant.

But playing open at the nut, a couple of Hz sharp or flat (about 8 cents) can clash with the other players in the group. Since I know I have about 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop, I choose to split the difference. I tune my Es to a reference of 441, then when I hit the pedals, they will only drop to around 439. 441 or 439 are acceptable for the small amount of playing I do open at the nut. But if I tune my Es to 440, and they drop to 438 with the pedals down, I think I sound off with the group.

This splitting the difference may be why Jeff Newman put the reference for the Es a little sharp for one of his charts. And by the way, this works whether you tune JI or straight up ET. For ET it just means your "straight up" reference for all the open, unpedaled strings would be 441 (or whatever it needs to be for your guitar) rather than 440. Many meters allow you to choose what your "straight up" reference pitch is.

If your cabinet drop is less than 5 cents (1.25 Hz), this kind of compensation is probably not worth fooling with. On most modern 10-string pedal steels, the cabinet drop is probably less than 5 cents. Mine goes to 8 cents only because it is a 12-string, and I have extra pulls on the heavy-gauge low strings.

I once played a steel that had been tuned to the Newman chart.

Never again.

Jeff's chart doesn't work on modern steels, as cabinet drop is much less pronounced now than when he wrote the chart for his ShoBud

I tune my "E"s to 440.5 .

I used Jeff's OLD chart, back in the 70's and early 80's.It might be this chart you are referring to, Richard, when you say he tuned his shobud that way. He played his msa a lot back in the 70s/80s.
This old chart made my MSA sound a bit sour.

Today, I use his current chart and I was surprised at how nice in tune my guitar sounds.

There are in fact 2 Newman charts. Some may not realize this. I don't remember all the strings but I do remember that the 4,8,1 and 7 strings were tuned to 440.

Before I started using a tuner, I'd tune open, then pedals, and knees, until it suited me, in all combinations.

After I bought a Conn Strobe tuner, I did the same, but then immediately after, checked the tuning against the Conn, and noted exactly what every string was tuned to.

After I bought my Korg W-10A, I did the same thing, and noted the tuning. There was only a little change from the tuning chart that Tom Bradshaw had out for the Korg.

I went with the Korg, simply because it (at that time) was very much smaller than the huge Conn, and it worked well on batteries that would seemingly last foreverd. It also, fit easily in my seat.

In my opinion, the old Korg W-10A, is one of the best tuners there is.

Bingo Richard. Bravo.

Don, that's the best way to do it. I have never seen the point of using someone else's chart for someone else's instrument, unless you are a beginner with an undeveloped ear. Tune it by ear so it's in tune with itself and sounds right to you. Then check a tuner and write it down for those times when you can't tune by ear. That's how Jeff developed his charts (he had Lloyd Green tune by ear), and there's no reason we can't all do the same thing.

Exactly Dave. Beginners don't understand this.

David, you are absolutely right. Each steel has it's own perks, and needs to be tuned to itself (so to speak).

Forgot to add: Make sure to keep the same string gauges afterward is very important as well. Preferibly from the same manufacturer, as there are (at times) a slight variation from one manufacturer to the other.

Jeff Newman's old chart:

I tried tuning to Jeff Newman's chart a couple of times. It never sounded in tune on my guitar, to me anyway. I believe Jeff had already developed his chart and later compared the readings for Lloyd Green's guitar and said they were pretty close. Also I don't know how anyone can stand to play a guitar that has all strings and changes tuned straight up. That always sounds out of tune to me. Besides everything changes going from engaging one change to another. I may find a better way later but now I tune my E's to 440 with the A & B pedals down and then tune the rest by ear. I haven't found a system that makes everything sound in tune with out compensating with a little bar slant, etc.

Larry Custer wrote:This may sound like a stupid question. We hear guys tuning their E's to 400 and some tune them sharp (Jeff Newman way). If 2 players play together on a set, one is not in tune with other, I would think or not? If one's Es is 400 and the other's is sharp.

How you tune your E strings is not relevant to whether you are playing in tune or not. For years (decades?) Jeff tuned his E strings to 440 and played perfectly in tune with everyone. Then he realized that some of his his open strings were too flat and he adjusted his tuning chart upwards. It made no difference in his ability to play perfectly in tune with the bar, up and down the neck.

The difference in bar positions is very slight. Raising your E's a few cents only effects how well your open strings blend with the other instruments.

My marimba is tuned to A=442. No musician yet has told me that it sounds out of tune. 440 vs 442 isn't a that big of a deal!

I agree, B0b.....
Everyone who is worried about this should turn on the tuner, bar up someplace and discover what a small move it is between 440 and 442. Most good players use a much bigger move for vibrato/tremolo than this...
Moon

Just check your tuner when you pick a string.
When you first pick the string, it always registers higher. It has to "settle down" a bit before you get a true reading.

Erv, I've never noticed that on my Korg. Maybe your putting too much imput into the tuner, but then too, I guess it depends on the tuner itself.

Bob, you tune much the same as what I do.

b0b wrote: The difference in bar positions is very slight.

That's why I personally don't worry about "cabinet drop". If your guitar's strings go 4 or 5 cents flat when you press two pedals, well, while playing it's pretty unlikely you'll nail every fret you hit more precisely than that, anyway. It takes very little movement of the bar to change pitch by a few cents, especially the higher up the neck you go, with the frets closer together.

And in a band it would be a miracle if all the instruments playing were dead on pitch on all notes, not even a few cents off.

I bet the application of a tuner, note by note, to the great recordings of the players we all regard as masters would find them a couple of cents off from time to time, and it doesn't bother our ears any!

I agree with Richard and Kenny . Buddies Harmonic tuning will get you close enough with most bands in my opinion . But what do i know ?

The rule of thumb I've heard is that anything within 5 cents (1.25 Hz) of the target pitch is acceptable to most listeners. Watching a meter and listening, I have found that to be true. Things don't really start sounding off to me until they get beyond that rule of thumb.

I find myself more concerned about the pedals down open A note(6th string) rather than the E. I don't use any chart or anything but I tune the E's a hair sharp from 440. I then tune the pedals down A note just tad flat in comparison with the E note. Seems to work okay. When moving up the fretboard, the 6th string with the pedals down seems to become progressively sharp in relation to the 4th string. Tuning a shade flat helps compensate for this. I don't play a bunch of open strings but I use some. I guess in my case, most of the stuff is more centered around the pedals down position rather than the pedals up.

Ken

Ken, I do the same thing. Interesting about that progressive 6th string.

Always get my E's and B's to 440....the rest I use my "EARS" open and pedals/knees. That was recommended by Paul Franklin ages ago.Works well. Also occasionaly play in a darkened room. I recall the Big "E" mentioned that years ago in a book, that sure sharpens up your "Ears"

Micky Byrne United Kingdom

Carter and Sho-Bud universals