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Topic: Another Fender 1000 Problem |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 8:19 pm |
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Continuing my Fender 1000 project... I decided to tune the front neck to the Sacred Steel E7. One of the features of this copedent is a middle E string that lowers to D.
I used an .032 (Jagwire nickel) for the middle E. Adjusting the pedal to lower it to D, I could only get to within 40 cents of the target note. A close examination of the changer confirmed that I was at maximum travel, and still nearly a quarter-tone sharp of D. 
I changed the string to a .036, but still no luck. I have a .042 B string next to it that lowers to A without a hitch.
Am I missing something here? Or is the mechanism simply incapable of doing what I want? 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 8:53 pm
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Bob.....All the years I have played my Fender 400..
I have never had a change that lowers a string a full note. I do raise my E to F#...I have no idea about your question.... Hopfully, Jim will know...
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 9:06 pm
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bOb - I have set up 3 guitars (400's) for ebb to drop his 1st strings (.015") D# to C# on a pedal. No way did I come close to using all the travel in the changer. It almost sounds like the lowering blade of the changer is hung up somehow and not able to travel its full sweep. Is the loop that tunes the lower damaged or bound somehow? You should be able to easily drop a string that large 1-1/2 frets with that kind of a changer. Sounds like something is hung up in there and not allowing full travel or possibly not full return. . .the 'returned' blade could still be partially extended, the results being reduced total (therefore insufficient) travel despite the change in gages.
PRR |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 9:41 pm
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bOb,
If you find no other problems, such as Paul describes, try a .032w that has a larger diameter 'core' than what you are currently using.
A larger 'core' will give greater amount of pitch-change per given amount of changer travel.
Conversely, it will require less changer travel per given amount of pitch change.
The size of a 'core' string in any certain size wound string may vary from one manufacturer to another.
~Russ |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 9:49 pm pics
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Here's what I'm seeing. It's the third finger from the bottom of the picture.
The tuning screw is turned as far as it will go.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2007 9:58 pm
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The .032 had a .015 core. The .036 has a .017 core. I did see an improvement when I swapped strings, but it's still not tunable to D.
By the way, there is no raise pull on this string. I don't know if the raise tuning screw figures into this or not. It shouldn't... |
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Nic du Toit
From:
Milnerton, Cape, South Africa
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 1:02 am
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Here is an email Peter sent you.
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Hi b0b,
I had a similar problem on my low E - string 8(.030W).
I temporarily tuned string 7 (F#.026W) down to E and it dropped to D without problems.
So I put a .026w on string 8 and all is well. The string feels a bit light though.
Best Regards
Peter den Hartogh
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 6:47 am
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| In the top photo, is that the "unpedaled" position? If so, the 3rd string lowering lever is noticibly activated (from the turnbuckle being overtightened). Those levers should all be in a perfect line when pedals aren't activated. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 7:47 am
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Sharp eyes there, Donny! You're right. I loosened the turnbuckle, retuned the string and found that I had gained another 10 cents. The pedal now lowers the E to D +30 cents. Close, but still audibly out of tune.
I need to get another 15 cents (at least) from somewhere.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 7:52 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I need to get another 15 cents (at least) from somewhere. |
B0b, the check is in the mail. Hope it will make up the difference on a thicker string.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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George Duncan Sypert
From:
Colo Spgs, Co, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 7:57 am
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| b0b try using a stainless steel string instead of nickel. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 12:25 pm Found my 15 cents!
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| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
I need to get another 15 cents (at least) from somewhere. |
B0b, the check is in the mail. Hope it will make up the difference on a thicker string. |
I found it! Turns out the the pedal was bottoming out on the floor, so I wasn't getting the full changer pull. I shortened the pedal rod and it gave me that little extra I needed.
For those who have been following my Fender 1000 adventure, here's the current copedent:
| Tab: |
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E
D -C#
B ++C#
G# +A -G
E ++F#
E --D
B ++C# --A
E
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
D
E +F
C +C# -B
A ++B
G -F#
E +F -Eb
C +C#
A
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8 |
Definitely a two-footer!
I've had the back pickup rewound to original specs (by Jason Lollar - great job!). The guitar now sounds and plays really nice. I'm going to have to get another one if I want to play Mooney's Bakersfield style, though. This one with its 24.5" scale just didn't like high G# strings at all.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 2:43 pm Re: Found my 15 cents!
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I thought you were going to say 'And danged if there wasn't a nickel and a dime jammed in the changer!'
(Too many old piano tuner fish stories.)
I think I would have liked a Fender....
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 5:34 pm
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b0b - There might be some real merit to what George posted. I failed to mention that on ebb's guitars, I used all stainless strings.
If the pedal was hitting the floor, you may have to carry a hammer and chisel with to gigs so that the floor can be modified to accommodate your guitar. Just kidding. ebb had the same problem with one of his guitars. The pedal just barely touched the floor, so it wasn't real noticeable physically, but the proper pitch for the pull just eluded him.
I also found that marking each pedal rod with a Sharpie made certain that they'd all go back on the proper pedals. Just getting 2 of them mixed up can result in chaos.
BTW Try moving your G# to G drop over to the left of your B to C# raises. The 2 pedals can be used together for a nice IV7th chord when playing open pedals for the I chord. Go up 2 frets from 'home' position, and you have a nice V7th chord.
PRR |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 5:54 pm
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Sorry guys...just caught the thread. Read the first few posts, looked at the pic, and started to post about checking the "horizontal stop" ((i.e. the floor) when I noticed it'd just been caught - I think all of us who play Fenders have done that one at least once, and on carpet you don't always notice it.
If that one was hitting the floor you may have all of them lined up a tad low - I brought mine up all relatively level to the floor and found the guitar quicker and more comfortable to play.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2007 8:40 pm
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| Paul Redmond wrote: |
| I also found that marking each pedal rod with a Sharpie made certain that they'd all go back on the proper pedals. Just getting 2 of them mixed up can result in chaos. |
I have those little white number rings on the rods. I got them from Williams.
| Quote: |
BTW Try moving your G# to G drop over to the left of your B to C# raises. The 2 pedals can be used together for a nice IV7th chord when playing open pedals for the I chord. Go up 2 frets from 'home' position, and you have a nice V7th chord.
PRR |
I combine P4 with P6+P7 to get that chord. I'm used to having the G on an inside pedal. P3+P4 gives me the open G dobro licks and the G6th chord, which would be less convenient if I moved the G pedal over to P1.
It's all in what your used to... 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Nov 2007 9:20 am
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| Quote: |
| Turns out the the pedal was bottoming out on the floor... |
Kudos to Bob for "owning up" to that one! 
Yes, we all have those forehead-slap moments, don't we?  |
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Marty Smith
From:
California
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Posted 5 Nov 2007 7:53 pm
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B0B
I mark all rods with a number stamp on the end that goes to the pedal, If its the early one there is a ball end that goed in the pedal. If its thick enough I file a small flat then stamp it. I use a small 1/16 stamp
Marty |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Nov 2007 4:10 am
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Actually, when I was using my (old model) 1000, I never worried about which rod went where. It was far easier to just spin them up to the right position after they were connected, since the pedal travel was so short compared to most steels.  Same for the turnbuckles...after awhile, you can tighten them properly (by "feel") without even looking at them.
Since that was my only guitar for about 8 years (and the one I played when I was on the road), it became pretty familiar to me! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2007 7:28 am
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I've marked rods with a Sharpie, but like Donny found it was pretty unecessary, since the rods can be adjusted very quickly while in place. Same thing with turnbuckles - I'll do little "feel" adjustments quite often.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2007 9:19 am
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Did you experiment with setting the pedals all at a little higher clearance? I started out on my first 1000 with them angled down slightly, thinking that would be easier to play; in my case (maybe it's my 13/EEE's) that's dead wrong, and they ned to come straight out. The very tip of each pedal is approximately 1 3/4" from the floor, and it's far more comfortable, easier to control legato bends, and faster when I want a quick change.
BTW, here's a neat looking 2000 that showed up on eBay. Might be the ticket for someone who wants Fender tone and ease of "experimentation", but without the need for precise setup to avoid string breakage like on the long-scale models. I have a short-scale 400 and the tone is fairly close to the long-scale (both have low impedance pickups which seems to be a big part of the sound) and with slightly heavier strings it sustains like crazy. The short-scale models, although dissed by some Fender players, benefit more than the long-scale models from return spring changes, and you can really get them set up with a quick, light, more precise-feeling pedal action closer to a modern steel.
click here
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Nov 2007 7:05 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| Did you experiment with setting the pedals all at a little higher clearance? |
I'd have to extend the legs to do that, and the thing sits pretty high already. Besides, there's no need. It all works fine now.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 11 Nov 2007 1:04 am
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Pedal bottoming out on the floor 
Been there, done that  |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2007 6:00 am
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bob,
Have you ever tried stabilizing the bull of the woods, steel guitar?? An orderly procedure to arrest bottoming out in simplistic terminology; is to try using aluminum coasters between the legs and the rug. Many times planned "outings" will develop into a disaster, if you forget to include 2 pieces of plywood to support and stabilize your instrument. Half inch plywood is light and is easily transported from job to job. Measure the approximate leg spans, and procede to cut a rectangular piece, cut to order. BTW, your seat will require the same treatment. Soft lawns can frustrate the best of players. The Fender 1000 known for excelling in tone, is also known for delivering surprises at inopportune moments. Whatever "Moon" declares, would immediately create an "all ears" situation from my side of town. From string breaking issues to soldering defects, the Fender 1000 is primed for delivering surprises at showtime. I battled with the 1000 for a number of years,and its output helped me to stash some cash over the years. I must say with all sincerity that I never regretted building a workable 10 string steel here at home. |
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