The Steel Guitar Forum

An interesting topic emerged from the Rickembacher thread....and although it's been discussed in the past....this seems like a good time to present this again, since there are many new folks here.....

With regard to lap, console, table, and non pedal steel guitars in general.....many have collections to varying degrees.....

I'm not sure what designates a "collection".....50 guitars, 10 guitars?

Personally, between the DustPans, the SuperSlides, the Cruztones, and others......I feel that the sound and tone of these modern steels are far better than many vintage steels.....of course, if one is going for a certain vintage tone, than the vintage steel has that.....unless it can be duplicated by modeling processors & amps......

So, there is no shortage of excellent quality steels.....

I agree that the preservation of these vintage steels is of the upmost importance.....

Your thoughts?

I have a fair amount of Rickys ...

I think of myself as a ... curator

Well, since you asked....

I'm not all that stoked about guitar collections or anything like that, but I definitely appreciate the knowledge that many of these folks accumulate in pursuing their passion. More times than not, they are more than happy to share this acquired expertise. Would really love to play some of those suckers, though.

I went to the Philly Guitar Show recently and I must say, nothing bores me more than looking at a roomful of overpriced, over-hyped guitars. There were Les Pauls there that cost more than my home. The Strat phenomenon is way out of whack IMO. I just don't get it.

I could write pages on the subject because it is rich with all sorts of stuff. But I'll try to keep my thoughts in check. First---there is no right or wrong. There are things that offend me but that doesn't mean they are wrong. Guys who buy as an investment and lock away the loot---that sucks. But guys who own something that is valuable and getting more valuable and put it away for safe keeping---well, that's not much different but it sure seems more understandable (and it is a personal predicament that taught me a bit of a lesson about giving in to lust for a shiny bauble).
Guys who obviously collect out of a love & passion---I love it. Complaints that the instruments need to be played----well, I understand but who are the playing police? You only play that guitar once every couple of months? Not good enough! You don't play it in front of people? That instrument needs to be heard! In front of you wife & kids? Uh....let me consult with the appeals court. Nah---I'm not too interested in the sanctimony of this argument. It is futile, undefinable, unenforceable, and overly romantic. But there are some fair impulses there too---you sometimes wonder if a collector is missing the point that these are not just artifacts---they are musical tools.

I love that people cherish this stuff. I like the term 'curator'. That's good.

There are foundations that own Strad fiddles and they select young artists who they deem to be worthy to use them. They are loaned out to these performers to boost their music while allowing these irreplaceable axes to do what they were built for. I love this. It is also considered essential that the instruments get played---this has to do with the physics of the wood and I don't know if it is real or myth---I'm sure there is a forum somewhere where one could join a good argument on the subject.

Just kind of stream-of-conciousnessing.
When I see the Shatz collection a number of thoughts start jumbling in my head. But the primary thought is "wow."

Menagerie. Guitar Whisperer Manque.

I have been "conservator" of my vintage instrument and amplifier collections for more than 35 years and have found that I get a great deal of satisfaction from being an "expert" on the items I have studied. I say studied because that is what we do. Many collectors become fluent in the minutia and details that differentiate models and years and many share that info openly with others who are interested (this forum is a good place to share knowledge). I have compiled thousands of photos detailing instruments that would be otherwise useless information if not for the opportunity to pass that info along. I am so full of pointless knowledge when it comes to vintage equipment of all types that I wonder why should anyone care. But then there are those who study history, or stars or play golf every day. It's just my thing. My interest. I could hang paintings on the wall, or place vases on a table, but I like guitars and such. I also can USE them. I can put something of myself into them and get something back. I can exploit them. I know what a good '57 Strat does that sets it apart from the others. I can pick which Fender amp to use with which steel to get the sound I want that I hear in my head.
Yes, I am a collector, and I like it. Had things gone some other way I might have ended up a mime.

Well said..............

I currently own about a dozen lap and console steels. I don't consider this a "collection", but my wife does! The thing is, on any given day I may play 3 or 4 different lap steel guitars. I am fascinated by the different tone, feel, heart or whatever you might call it, that each instrument possesses. I am also fascinated by the small details of each piece - how each maker designed and crafted the bridge, nut, fretboard, the body shape, the pickups...etc. The design/engineering variability between steel guitars is very interesting to me. These are fun to own, fun to study, and even more fun to play. And still pretty affordable. I am not buying to invest, I am buying to have good examples of many different maker's instruments. My "harem", if you will. But I play them all, and take good care of them.

You're hooked, Don

I am not collecting,but I have built seven since last summer. Each one is different and has different tone qualities.Like Don Fox, I sometimes play three or four thru three different amps.Such fun and I would collect if I had the spare money.Alas when I see some go for several hundreds of dollars, I can't help but think I could build several more with that money.The worst is when they part out vintage steels and deprive future players from using them.

I have seen considerable "collector bashing" in the past on this Forum-and I believe that the "bashers" are likely just jealous "have nots and wanna be's" They have no concept of what true collectors (or conservators) have done for the instruments-Does anyone else recall when Dobro great (and collector) Tut Taylor decided to sell all except one of his hundred plus vintage Dobros so that he could get them out into the hands of other players? I myself once owned three dozen pre-WWII vintage Dobro and National resos-all of them were in fine original condition-no junk-I realized that they were more than I needed (even though I loved the instruments) and decided to let go of many of them-same thing with my Bigsbys-I once owned eight of them-and now I only have two-which I will likely be keeping till I pass on-I never considered myself as "hoarding" guitars-because I can play them and often restore them to proper playing condition-and in doing so I feel that all the animosity directed at those like myself is totally uncalled for-I don't know how many times I have seen a lowly old lap steel or resophonic guitar that was neglected and left to tarnish away with rusted strings and busted or missing parts that I just HAD TO BUY because I knew that I could restore,repair, and setup that horn to regain it's previous dignity-and in doing so I would be occupied with a project that in the end will yield something that brings happiness to me or whoever I sell the now working instrument to-I feel alot of satisfaction from that and I will continue to do it so long as I can-PW

I can only afford a few instruments. they are my prizes and I play them all the time.
I do collect pictures of the instruments I GAS for.
I have a very nice collection of pictures. wanna see em?

I am hooked, for sure. When I look over my collection and consider which guitar I would possibly part with, I can't make myself do it! I love 'em all!

My views on collectors has been colored by too many collectors I've met that don't play or can just barely and telling me how great this instrument sounds, how great it IS, etc. They are just trying to enhance the emotion value of their collection. I have no use for those kind of collectors. Also a lot of collectors tend to be hoarders. That's not collecting, that's compulsion! No use for that kind. And they ALL drive the prices up just so they can look at their wall and get off.(I'm not in a good mood today, am I?) BUT it is a free country. And I never bought the "old is great ipso facto" argument. I've play way too many "old" instruments acoustic and electric that I wouldn't give you ten cents for. I have owned a dozen Dobros over the last forty years for instance. The best was a "new" one. And it was the best far and away. Anyway, to paraphrase an old saying: I'm not all that enthused with collectors but I would die for your right to do so". Maybe..............

I have no problem with knowledgeable collectors with a passion for the instrument. What rubs me the wrong way are those that buy strictly for the investment, especially hoarding, that's what has priced many instruments into the Strat-o-sphere, IMHO

I echo Paul's sentiment that SGF threads typically are not very collector friendly. This is one reason why I choose to lurk in the background and only post when questions concerning a particular model or value are presented to the community. Even though I'm also a player my primary instrument is not a lap or reso. Also I'm not a student of theory and play strictly by ear so what can I contribute? Lots of knowledge about prewar instruments derived from my passion for collecting!
Isn't it better for an intrument to be properly maintained then sit in an attic of basement collecting dust or even worse? If you consider the astronomical number of guitars or even lap steels that have been manufactured just over the past 75+ years it undoubtedly equates to more than a dozen for everyone who seriously plays. As an investment, lap steel guitars aren't going to make you rich unless you own a boatload of select high end or rare models. The far majority of vintage steels still sell for <$500. So IMO those who collect them do so because of their love of the instrument whether as a player, piece of art or both!
I have worked very hard building my collection (www.guitaracquisitionsyndrome.com) over the past 7 years with passion that stems from the historical value of the instruments. However I'm a player and not just a collector so my instruments do see the light of day but more importantly are cherished, maintained and documented for others to enjoy. I lend guitars and amps to local musicians and studios for recording sessions. I actively exchange information with like-minded collectors in an effort to expand my knowledge. My collection serves many purposes but most of all, its my thing!
Those that believe you should only own instruments that are played are very near sighted IMO. Perhaps they don't have the financial resources or little interest in preserving the historical value. Sure they were meant to be played but just remember that most collections end up back in the market at some point. It then becomes your choice whether you want to purchase or not. So if you think folks are "hoarding" all these great instruments and denying players the opportunity to own them then step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is! Lets not bother getting into how crazy the prices have become because unfortunately that is reality and it is not going to change anytime soon. That debate would be nothing more than beating a dead horse!
This really doesn't even need to be debated because all of us are on this forum for one reason - Steel Without Pedals. Whether a player, collector or both everyone can contribute to the community. It is a great resource for information and also a wonderful catalyst to discover new friends. So maybe I'm not a hard core steel player but I still love the instrument and support the community!
My soapbox rests

In my case, I didn’t ask to be a curator. As a matter of fact, I accumulated a couple extra guitars from my band playing days. I gave them to my sons and my collection was reduced down to one electric, one acoustic guitar and one amp. I would have gotten rid of my PA system if somebody in the area offered a half way decent price.

Although I am a little uneasy talking about this in an open forum, I am compelled to share my experience of my Fathers passing and how I came to be a curator of these beautiful instruments for my family and hopefully for other to enjoy one day. But more importantly my passion as a musician was rekindled by the acquisition of these instruments.

In my introduction I gave a history of my Father, Sam Floyd Jr. He was an accomplished musician in guitar and steel. He taught hundreds of students how to play guitar over his long life. In October of 1961, my Dad was a music teacher at a Washington DC music store called Clark’s Music. My Dad had been eyeing a special guitar that was supposed to be the Cadillac of all guitars. When I was born on October 29, 1961, my Dad called “old man Clark” to place an order for a Gibson ES-335, Sunburst Finish with a Bigsby Tremolo. My Dad held on to that guitar his entire life. He played the damn thing so much he wore the frets down to the board and then he sent the guitar back to Gibson in Nashville to have them replaced. I grew up with that guitar and inspired to play the guitar the way my dad played that Gibson. Well the sort of it was, that never happened. My strengths as a singer and a rhythm guitarist served me well for my part time music career for many years. I think my Dad knew and understood this. After his passing I was not too surprised to discover I would received the Gibson ES-335 but what surprised that he handed down most of his instruments and amplifiers to me. They include the Gibson as stated, the Fender Quad Stringmaster, a Gibson Hound Dog Dobro along with several amplifies. For the longest time, I felt guilty that these beautiful instruments were entrusted to me. I wasn’t sure what I should do with them. My first feelings were that I was not worthy to play these instruments and I could not make them sing the way my Dad did. I had thought about donating the steel to the Hawaiian Musical Institute (I think that’s the name of it) and I probably will one day. But as time passed and it has not been very long (he passed last December), I came to the realization he would want these instruments played. So I started playing around with the Dobro and then the steel. In tinkering around with them, I rediscovered my passion as a musician. New instruments I never really considered playing before. One of my Brothers asked if he could have the Dobro to hang in his house as a memento of our Dad. It broke my hart to tell him no. The instruments are not meant to be hung on a wall to collect dust. At least not these. He agreeded.

So I am a keeper of my Fathers legacy. But I am also revitalized as a musician. That would make my Pop happy. I can’t play them well, but I do play them. I keep the Gibson ES-335 locked in a Gun Vault because of its value. And to be truthful, I still have emotional issues when I take it out and play it. The instruments are there for his family to use and enjoy when ever they want, but I have the responsibility to see to there care so other generations can enjoy and be inspired to carry on our family tradition.

V/r,

Sam

Off topic...Howard - did you get my email from you on a completely different but equally interesting topic to you last week? I was hoping to hear back from you.

Hey Howard! Thanks for starting this new thread.

I could write pages on the subject because it is rich with all sorts of stuff. But I'll try to keep my thoughts in check. First---there is no right or wrong. There are things that offend me but that doesn't mean they are wrong. Guys who buy as an investment and lock away the loot---that sucks. But guys who own something that is valuable and getting more valuable and put it away for safe keeping---well, that's not much different but it sure seems more understandable (and it is a personal predicament that taught me a bit of a lesson about giving in to lust for a shiny bauble).
Guys who obviously collect out of a love & passion---I love it. Complaints that the instruments need to be played----well, I understand but who are the playing police? You only play that guitar once every couple of months? Not good enough! You don't play it in front of people? That instrument needs to be heard! In front of you wife & kids? Uh....let me consult with the appeals court. Nah---I'm not too interested in the sanctimony of this argument. It is futile, undefinable, unenforceable, and overly romantic. But there are some fair impulses there too---you sometimes wonder if a collector is missing the point that these are not just artifacts---they are musical tools.

(Bill Leff)

Agreed. There can’t and won’t be any standard – it’s completely arbitrary - and perhaps my hang-up regarding extensive collections is just plain silly. (And I take no issue with anyone having/voicing that opinion.) It’s just a hang-up…I have lots of ‘em.

Preservation/restoration/education – those are all great things. And people like forumites Basil and Andy Volk(?) can talk to those that do this work and create publications that give us all a great picture of the art of the instrument. But then, a question: Which is better - to read about the instrument or to have access to it, experience it, utilize it? My opinion in this regard is reflected in Paul Warnick’s post:

I never considered myself as "hoarding" guitars-because I can play them and often restore them to proper playing condition-and in doing so I feel that all the animosity directed at those like myself is totally uncalled for-I don't know how many times I have seen a lowly old lap steel or resophonic guitar that was neglected and left to tarnish away with rusted strings and busted or missing parts that I just HAD TO BUY because I knew that I could restore,repair, and setup that horn to regain it's previous dignity-and in doing so I would be occupied with a project that in the end will yield something that brings happiness to me or whoever I sell the now working instrument to-I feel alot of satisfaction from that and I will continue to do it so long as I can.

This is what makes the most sense to me. On the other hand, should anyone be required to let go of their guitars when they’ve reached a certain number of guitars? That’s that same as the question Jon Light posted above – there’s no answer, no standard, nor should there be.

The intention of my original post:

Forgive me for being the wet blanket here, but I just don't understand such large collections. How much playing/recording/stage time to these guitars get?

I guess it's a philosophical question - what is the value of a guitar that doesn't get much use? How does that compare to the value of a guitar in the hands of someone who will play it regularly?

was not to bash collectors, but to ask the purpose of collections (not that there NEEDS to be a purpose to anyone other than the collector). I don’t collect anything, really, so the concept of collections has long eluded me. That being said, Bill Creller responded with something I very much relate to:

The neat thing about having a wall full of guitars is that you can grab which-ever one your mood dictates that day!!
It seems that sometimes certain guitars sound better on some days than others (??)

…and if I may extend that idea, some models of course have attributes others don’t. Which is why I own a Strat AND a Tele AND a Dano, a Melobar AND a National console, a spider reso AND a biscuit reso. …which leads me the next question: at what point does the collection become less about the practical aspects of owning the guitar (eg, features of different models) because it’s something you want to play, and more about just plain owning the guitar simply because of what it is?

I’m not saying my philosophy of ownership is CORRECT, I’m just asking questions because I do have opinions regarding the matter and would like to know others’ opinions.

Tighe Falato wrote: This really doesn't even need to be debated because all of us are on this forum for one reason - Steel Without Pedals. Whether a player, collector or both everyone can contribute to the community. It is a great resource for information and also a wonderful catalyst to discover new friends. ...
My soapbox rests

Just a discussion...and all of us are on the Forum to discuss all things steel.

I only have one guitar. That's all I can play. And I'm a low level player. So I don't need anything fancy. I have an excellent sounding guitar with high quality electronics. It is nice looking but plain.
But I am the kind of guy who if I was a working regularly (as a player) in a higher profile situation I would want to have a higher profile guitar. One of these big collections would be an excellent place to find one, n'est pas?

Anyone feeling guilty about having too many guitars is free to ship the extras to me.

I have a lot of guitars and amplifiers, and I build some of the guitars, and other instruments that I play. I think that music is the most magical and meaningful of the arts and I want to be surrounded by the things that make it.

Hi Bill......I did receive your email....I apologize....I've been under the gun and it must have slipped below the radar.....I'll get it and reply......


I suppose as most everything in life goes....."your milage may vary" applies......even with regard to those who collect....

I really wonder if there is anyone who collects steel guitars for investment purposes only....like buying stocks, bonds, futures.....etc....and just locks them away, forget about them until their "maturity" date arrives, and then goes in for the kill......

From people I have met, friends that I have made, and communicating over the internet, it seems to me that anyone who is involved with steel guitar,.....has a great passion for it....and we do appear to be a quirky group......so,IMO there is a passion for the instrument(s)......

When there is passion, logic and emotional attachment dictate preservation.....and if there is any one point which is the bottom line of all this....I will say that the preservation of an irreplacible instrument, is that point.

How many times have we seen Stringmasters parted out, split up, and mangled? Charlie Christian and P90 pick ups ripped out of steels to be used in other guitars? Who would like to see The Jerry Byrd Fender being played with distortion & fuzz in Billy Joe's Beer Palace on two fer one night?

You get my drift......more thoughts to follow, 'cause I ain't finished.....to be continued.....

Edward Meisse wrote: But I am the kind of guy who if I was a working regularly (as a player) in a higher profile situation I would want to have a higher profile guitar. One of these big collections would be an excellent place to find one, n'est pas?

Why not buy a modern steel or a modern reproduction?.....I mentioned the DustPan, SuperSlide, CruzTone, and West Coast makes a Stringmaster type steel.....I can't tell you how many times I have received a vintage steel and have been disappointed in the sound, or if not disappointed, have thought that the modern steels are better sounding......in all practicality.....if I had to choose only two guitars to keep for playing....it would be my DustPan and my SuperSlide......I wouldn't need anything else.....