When our "heroes" grow old......

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

You know, its been many decades that pedal steel has been part of popular music.. 5 or more now.. Many of the original steel greats have gone on, many are still around and don't play as much etc etc...

One time while talking on the chat room, the name of one of the all time great players came up.. He had just played a steel show and some guys that were present were discussing sadly how his playing had deteriorated badly, and maybe it wasn't such a great idea that he played in public at this point...

I have heard this from other players also.. Kind of like seeing one of the all time great baseball players in his declining years.. a hall of famer to be that can't run anymore, hitting .203, no longer plays the field, just pinch hits etc.. kind of sad....

Not long ago, I saw a Youtube of one of my heroes and mentors playing live, and I was saddened. his tone, time, and chops were pretty much gone... I felt pity because I knew his "heyday" playing... terrific!!

I dunno, I think these thoughts at times, and just want to discuss them with friends..

Is it a sad or joyous thing to see a great player in his decline???

Do you really want to see a mentor play when you can outplay him????

I mean nothing negative with this post, it happens to all of us at some point. I just want your feelings about a sensitive subject.. This relates to ANY musician or singer, not just steelers of course.. our abilities usually diminish with age.

I would appreciate an honest discussion among a group of pretty sensitive and talented guys,...actually, many of us that are not as
"cutting edge" as we were a few decades ago... thoughts??? bob

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

I feel strongly that anyone should play as much as they want for as long as they can. Nobody stays young forever. A player's diminishing capabilities in old age should not detract from anything great they may have done. We should cheer them on for continuing to find satisfaction and enjoyment in their instrument.

These people aren't race horses. They're human beings, who've enriched our lives and made us all better players through their accomplishments. The least we could do for them is not complain that they are aging.

Chuck S. Lettes · From: Denver, Colorado

You make some good points, Henry. I love seeing my "heroes" at the various shows. They still have a lot to offer, plus it's great to see their enjoyment on the stage and during our conversations. Like Henry says, they are human beings who have had an incredible influence on me.
Chuck

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I was discussing this very thing with a steeler friend the other day, noting that most of ages of the
players from the golden era were within a ten or less
year span. So we're losing them fast or seeing their
abilities decline.

I like to think that the forum members are a little kinder than the population at large when it comes to this. When I listen to one of these legends play, I can factor in his contributions to the body of
music we build on.

I went regularly to see Ernest Tubb as long as he toured. I enjoyed his last concert as much as the
first, maybe more, because I was watching one of the
builders of the house of country music. He still gave me goose bumps and got standing ovations. In
fact, he and Bill Monroe would get standing ovations as they came ON stage. I think that's the way it
should be and we should treat our icons the same way.

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I remember some of Bill's last shows. His voice aws shot, his timing long-gone---It was sad to watch, obviously. But at the end of every show, he'd ask,"CAN I COME BACK?" Standing o's, every time.

Ben Lawson · From: Brooksville Florida

My brother Tom & I went to St. Louis because of this very thing. Tom called and asked if I was going and I said not this time. He mentioned that we were losing some of the Greats and we should show our support while they were still here. I am very glad he talked me into going. We had some scary posts about Papa John & Billy Robinson and our prayers will
continue to be with them. The guys that don't play quite like they did years ago are probably still better than most of the rest of us. They deserve our gratitude for what the have already done. Without them we might not have been inspired to do what we do.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Good replies... I have heard several singers that have basically lost thier once great voices.. The 2 I am thinking about are female, and hearing them today is actually heartbreaking..
I think vocalists with diminished ability are more common than instrumentalists.. Great players can "get around" their "handicap" easier than a vocalist I would imagine.

Let me throw a wrench into the works.. If you yourself were in the midst of a time when your skills were eroding fast, and you were sounding or singing quite badly, would you continue just because you could???

I am not sure what I would do.... I wonder if there ever comes that day when one says to himself.." you can't play anymore"... "you sound awful and its time to let go"... I wonder.....

I guess maybe at 53 these thoughts are arising from self evaluation.. I am not the player/singer/performer I was 5 or 10 years ago. and I am realizing that inevitably we all "lose it" to some extent...

Maybe these thoughts are arising from the fact that I am playing bass in a heavy hard rock band, and my musical opportunities are drying up at an astounding pace.. No where to play really , and no one to play with in my chosen musical genres, a big change from years past... I get all introspective, and start expanding these things in my mind, and think about how the great players that I learned from go through the "decline".... bob

Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

I'll Soon Be 73 My Fingres Don't Work Like The Did I Don't Hear Like I Use To But I Still Love To Play As Much As I Can. We All Get Older My Good Friend Bobbe Seymour And I Talk About This Soms Times. But I Am Older than Him A Few Years. Hang In There Bobbe. SONNY.

Bobby Caldwell · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA * R.I.P.

Alot of these players are as good as they ever were. Everyone should get the "RUSSLESS" DVD and watch some of our heros tear it up. Some have lost a little but we should honor them for the work they have done. These are the people that made all of us do what we do. I stand and applaued them all. We have seen the greatest and lets never forget that. What a great time I lived in to see these wonderful players. God bless them all. Bobby

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I should have posed this question less specifically as everyone is getting defensive of the great steel players... My mistake, I should have made it more general...
Lets put it this way... In ANY entertainment field, musician, singer, writer, dancer, producer, WHATEVER... If the talent has really faded badly and the execution is truly poor, is it proper to carry on and perform in a sub par manner, just because of past accomplishments??...

Is it EVER the right time to quit?..

I meam if a singer is really awful for instance, to the point of the performance being an embarrassment, is it right to keep performing badly, because people will still pay to see you???

When is it time to pass the baton to the next generation of perfomers?... bob

Jimmie Brown · From: Fayetteville, NC, USA

I'm thinking what Clyde said. They are still my hero's because they were the reason i fell in love with the steel when i was in my teens.In fact Clyde is a hero to me because i use to sit up and watch the Saturday night tv show that he played on and wanted to be able to do all the things he did.
And Clyde old friend, I'm still trying ha.

Jimmie

John Coffman · From: Wharton,Texas USA

Time changes everything! It is sad to see your heroes not able to hit the same tone and the timing is a 1/4 step out. I feel as long as they want to play I'll be there to listen and learn. Most if these people have forgotten more about steel guitar than I could ever hope to learn. Tip you hat to the teachers and show the respect they so richly deserve.
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Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

Well said, Henry. I agree with every word.
Mitch

Matt Elsen · From: Deer Harbor, Orcas Island, WA

What Henry said.

To me it's all about the joy of playing. We're not all gunfighters, or highly paid relief pitchers for the New York Yankees. We're musicians. Some of us may be passed our prime but we make music because it makes us (and our audience) feel great. And it's all about that shared experience.

I'm thrilled to see the older players when i go to a show - St. Louis or anywhere else. I've always thought one of the best things about the Steel Guitar Community was the fact that people of all ages, talents, skills and abilities are embraced, without qualification or judgement. Players on their way up, and those on their way into the sunset. For some the chops may not be what they once were, but more often than not there is still soul and style and that's good enough for me. There's still plenty on offer and perhaps a player may no longer to desere to get prime-time billing on Saturday night at Scotty's ISGC but for me yesterday's superstar still should have their time and place.

And there is nothing more uplifting than to hear a player who has fought his way back from an illness, or a stroke, or an accident. They may be a shadow of what they once were, but they're back, and I'm happy to sit, listen, and cheer them on.

M.E.

Jody Sanders · From: Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.

I turned 77 years of age this year, and I am the first to tell you that I can't "rip it off" like I did 30 years ago. I am still out there and having fun playing. I just have to be selective about what licks I play. I will always have a place in my heart for the foundation players that gave us all a light to go by, and they deserve everyone's respect for their contribution to the steel guitar. I have played 86 gigs so far this year, so by the end of the year, I will have done over 100 gigs. I just thank GOD every day that HE has helped me play at the level I am playing now. Keep on pickin' and I will see you down the road. jody.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Interesting thread, Bob. Of course, Henry's right - people aren't race horses, but I don't think you remotely implied they were in any of your posts.

I, personally, have some mentors who are aging. For example, my jazz guitar mentor is just as scary a player nearing 70 as he was 20 years ago. Perhaps he has lost some speed and dexterity, but what a great player like this loses there he gains in musical judgement, "mileage", and taste.

I really think that if you play your cards right, you can wisely pick appropriate material to fit the chops level and raise the ante in emotional content and taste. I've seen plenty of people do that in all walks of life, not just music. I've been around scientists and engineers who just worked until they dropped, doing what they could to make a contribution.

So I see this as a matter of aging gracefully and working within one's capabilities. I've been lucky enough to see a lot of great performers near the end of the game - Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Bill Monroe, Marty Robbins, Buddy Rich, Ernest Tubb, Roy Acuff, Albert King, Freddie King, Luther Allison, Cab Calloway, Johnny Copeland, and a bunch of others. Some of them clearly knew it wasn't gonna be long, and there was incredible power in most of those performances. I think there's meaning way beyond any technical proficiency.

I think "passing the baton" can be done gracefully without relinquishing the right to play. I think that is more a matter of mentoring other players, scientist, engineers, or whatever.

Myself, I hope I can find a way to play and work on stuff I love until the the day the good Lord decides my time is up.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

"While one finds company in himself and his pursuits,
he cannot feel old, no matter what his years may be."
A. B. Alcott

"A man is not old as long as he is seeking something."
Jean Rostand
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Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Thank you, Dave... I didn't mean to imply that Bob was was being insensitive. Sometimes a good, thoughtful post can get a guy really fired up! Smile

No offense taken or meant!

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I have a pact with a local LONG TIME Friend of mine, Harley James that neither one of us are going to stop playing until we're pathetic wrecks.

The other day when I reminded him of this on the phone he asked what I was going to be doing now that I'm able to stop...

Seriously I don't know.

As some of my functions seem to be getting slower and things have caught up to me I don't find my forum participation has increased. Quite the opposite. I've tried to stay off when an abcessed tooth flares up, and mostly I've been sucessful.

I always have to type the address in from memory, so I'll suitably stop at a certain point...

We all wear out, and go through our seasons. Just like the trees are at this time of year..

I happen to like Autumn.
Wink

EJL

David Ziegler · From: Lancaster, Ohio, USA

I just got back from the NTSG Superjam,and to me, the highlight was still Don Helms. The young bucks are faster, more complex and more original, but Don is worth the price of admission anyday just because of the history and joy he brings every time he plays. My hero, who seldom plays in public anymore is Weldon Myrick, but I told him personally, what he has lost in speed and dexterity he has made up in style and delivery. I love to hear the older players because their sound and style "evolve" to match their skills and that is why they are the great players they are!

Dave Ziegler

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Bob,
I think it’s a very personal decision, and obviously, the answer will be different for each person.
Many times my wife and I will say to each other:
Why is he trying to make a comeback, he’s too old to box, he’ll hurt himself;
He/She doesn’t have any energy or control of their voice any more, why are they still singing;
How many times are they going to un-retire, basketball is a young person’s sport; etc, etc.
I can appreciate the perspective of - this is what they love and have done their whole life, and wouldn’t know what to do if they didn’t do this.
If a person can still do the activity they’ve done their whole life, even if at a diminished capacity when compared to their prime, good for them, and if people still enjoy watching or listening to them, I say that’s great for all of them.
With that being said - personally, I like to remember my favorites the way they were, and usually choose not to watch/listen if they’re not able to do what they used to. Of course I realize that their current sub-par performance doesn’t actually ruin my precious memories of the way they were, but it’s not enjoyable for me to listen to a singer or watch an athlete who just doesn’t have it any more, just because they used to be great.
Some times as a musician or athlete ages, they can’t be as quick as they once were, but make up for it by being smarter. But sadly, that stage only lasts so long before they’re simply not as good as their young counterparts any more. Does that make them any less valuable or diminish what they brought to their respective field – of course not!
My wife no longer sings professionally, because it’s not fun or rewarding to her, feeling that she doesn’t have as much to offer as she used to. She still can sing well, but for her that’s not good enough. At this point, 56 years old, I can still play about as well on all of my instruments of choice, though admittedly, my endurance and strength is less. If and when the time comes when my playing deteriorates and is truly “bad” but for some reason continue to play anyway, hopefully no one will have to listen to me who doesn’t want to.
Marc

David Collins · From: Madison, North Carolina, USA

Age carries wisdom that youth can not know,

Tis twice the joy to reap the crop as is the seeds to sow.

Author unknown, but quoted often by my now departed and greatly missed Grandfather.
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www.chjoyce.com

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

Speaking as one who has passed his 'prime' in more than one aspect of life, I'll soon be 75, (close to you Jody S., Don't slow down or you're caught) it isn't as easy as one thinks to give it up and go to the bench and be satisfied to just warm the damned thing. Put me in coach, I can still play 'destroyed the world'.

Last year in a fit of temper, and frustration, I made the decision to sell it all and quit. Wrong thing to do on my part,but my wisdom finally took over, and with a lot of encouragement from my band members and some folks from this forum I returned to the fray.

Good topic Carlucci, my long time chat room friend, and I remember the conversation about being too old. It really hit home but somehow I managed to overcome it. Very Happy

"I think "passing the baton" can be done gracefully without relinquishing the right to play. I think that is more a matter of mentoring other players, scientist, engineers, or whatever."

I like this quote from Dave M. It kinda' fits this old warhorse's agenda. Been at this instrument since 1948 and still learn new goodies at every session. That's my attitude and I'm stickin' to it. BTW, a check of this old journal I keep, shows that I have had more than 200 students in that time frame, but none of them have ever made it to Nashville. A lot of good family men and women though. Wonder which is more important? Smile

Phred
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Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Terrific replies... Like I said, when I think these thoughts, mulling them over and over in my mind, I know there's a smart and sensitive bunch that will have some good answers....

I too hope to play into an abvanced age.. We'll see..

I guess if I continually hear some really bad playing , I would just sell my stuff and walk away, but it would have to be pretty poor I suppose.
Kind of hard to walk away from a lifelong passion.. you know?

I guess the thing that disturbs me is the thought that I may not realize how far my abilities had deteriorated. I would hate to be a pathetic figure,thinking I was sounding good and being enjoyed by listeners, when in reality I was truly awful and folks felt sorry for me.

I hope my senses let me know when its time to go...... btw,keep the great replies coming.

Its wonderful to post here again and see so many of my online friends jump in and express thier opinions. bob

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

At our little club meetings at Tuttle, OK, the high light for me is watching our senior players BLOW OUR DOORS OFF!! If we knew a fifth of what they have forgotten, we could make a living playing!!

Jim Harper and Gene Jones, my hat's off to you guys!! Your spirit to play is awe inspiring!! Not only the spitit to play, but you get it done!! Harpers slowing down quite a bit, though. Up in his mid 80's, he's down to 3 gigs a week, year 'round!! But what do you expect for 60 years playing steel?? and us young pups still can't hang with these two!!

I sure don't try to grade older players and try to decide if they should "go away" or not. I see the fire in their bellies and the love for the playing and the joy they have playing. I hope I can show that joy and love when I reach those golden years. Quit when you lose that desire to play---until then, you still have time on your "quarter". Thank the Lord for steel shows and clubs. They are a beautiful place to get involved in and play---what ever your level.

Don't worry about what you can't do anymore---worry about what you can still do---and enjoy it.

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