Modal variations

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Howdy,
I have a working understanding of how modes operate. I know in a strict theoretical context, that there is a mode specific to each chord built on a scale. ie, Dorian over the iim, Mixolydian over the V7, etc.

Recently I saw someone post about playing a Dorian mode over the V7 chord, so I plugged a G7 into BIAB, and played C major from D to D. It sounded cool! very vampy, none of the notes really implied movement, so you could just hang there for a while. I probably wouldn't have stumbled onto that otherwise. I'd like to have a better understanding of what my ear was hearing as well, and why that exercise worked like it did.

Are there other mode/chord relationships that folks use that are "outside" of the strict theory approach? Or that they like the sound of?

Thanks!

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

There is no theoretical reason this wouldn't work. You are playing the notes of a major C scale whether you are playing D Dorian or G Mixolydian. It should all sound fine.

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Bill, thank you for replying. I understand that all the notes "work" as they are all from the C major scale. But to my ear, each specific mode has a flavor when played over it's chord. It was when I played a mode over a "different" chord, that I got a flavor over a dominant chord I hadn't gotten before. To my ear, a mixolydian pattern over the V7 chord has movement to it, implied anyway. The Dorian pattern over the V7 didn't have that movement to it. That was what I thought sounded cool.

I'm more interested in the "flavors" that can be achieved by playing modes over chords other than the chord built from/on that mode.

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

Sorry Carter,

I'm guess I'm missing something. In my mind the mode just gives you the available notes to play, not the arrangement of the notes. in other words, when the chord changes to a G7, I know I can play any of the notes of the G Mixolydian scale, which is the same as a C Major scale. I wouldn't necessarily start on the G note, or the D note when improvising and walk up the scale. I can start on any of the avalable notes. So I'm misssing where the flavor is you are talking about. I can play any notes of the C Major scale in D Dorian or G Mixolydian. I could start on the 3rd (F) of D Dorian, then play the 7th (C), I wouldn't necessarily start on the 1 (D).

Of course a D in Dorian would have a different effect than a D in G Mixolydian. Any lick you play is going to have a different feel played against a different chord.

[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 28 November 2005 at 12:30 PM.]

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

You aren't missing anything Bill, I wasn't very clear (or accurate) in my original post.

What I was actually doing was playing a D minor CHORD against that G7 chord, not simply noodling around with D Dorian. Then I was making little excursions from that D minor chord. But it was the 'flavor' of that D minor against the G7 that got my attention. I understand how different saying "D minor chord" is from saying "D Dorian".

So, my original post isn't really what I'm after.

you wrote: >>Any lick you play is going to have a different feel played against a different chord.<<

This is what really stood out. When I added a C chord after the G7 in BIAB and kept playing the same things, suddenly most of what I was doing didn't sound 'right', even though it was theoretically correct. I wanted to get out of D minorland WAY before that C came along. When I added an F chord in there for a 1-4-5, it got even murkier.

I can't say whether or not I woulda tried to specifically play a D minor chord while a G7 was playing or not. Probably not at this point in my playing. And clearly, as above, it won't work in a lot of situations, even in the key of C. But it was this brief instance that I got a taste of something that made me hungry for more. It was the "chord against chord" sensation.

Is this all about substitutions? Is that where I'm headed?

Mark Switzer · From: Los Angeles California, USA

A D minor chord over G7 just adds a A note which makes it a G9. The other 2 notes in a D minor triad (D and F) are already in the G7. Try making the Dm a minor 7th (add a C). This makes it a G11. Also, try an E minor triad which will give you a 13th.
This is usually called extention,rather than substitution. How you resolve back to the C chord will make a huge difference as to the sound. Some one once said "there are no wrong notes,just wrong resolution".

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

Mark,

Thank you for the reply, and for the ideas. That's what I really enjoy about good threads, the ones where folks say "here, try this as well..." so thanks.

Interesting that you call those examples extensions. I understand that they are extensions beyond the basic triad. Does that mean you would still think in terms of Dmin as opposed to G9? I guess alot (if not all) of this would depend on context, so it's hard to say.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas and their explanations, I appreciate it and look forward to trying them out.

[edit] that quote is quite true, and funny too...

[This message was edited by Carter York on 28 November 2005 at 03:31 PM.]

AJ Azure · From: Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

You're really playing Mixo regardless if you plat a G over it. Now if you substitute other modes 0rmday a diminished or whole tone over the V, you're being more modally riskay.

Mark Fasbender · Posted 29 Nov 2005 1:37 am

7th mode of the melodic minor is nice on the V chord. Also mixo a tritone away from the root has an interesting character. Both altered dominant sounds, just begging to get to the 1 chord. Many , many more possibilities. Just let your ears be your guide.

This would apply to a 2-5-1 cadence. Use in a blues would be trouble,or maybe not,depending on how stretched your ears are. YMMV

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 29 November 2005 at 01:41 AM.]

Carter York · From: Austin, TX [Windsor Park]

cool, Mark, thanks for the reply!

Concerning your first suggestion:
As I'm working this out on paper first, and already have a question. If we are in C, then our V chord is G(7). From what I know the Melodic minor has a flat 3rd going up (which implies a natural 7th, or B)

C D Eb F G A B C

but coming down it has a flat 3rd (a flat 6th?) and a flat 7th, or Bb.

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Which of those 7ths would the mode start on?? Starting on the B looks like it would add more color, with the flatted 2nd (or 9th?) otherwise the 7th mode would start out like a major scale, right? whole, whole, half?

Bb C D Eb

I'll keep plugging away at this, and look at the other example you gave as well. Thanks again!

[This message was edited by Carter York on 29 November 2005 at 11:43 AM.]

Mark Fasbender · Posted 29 Nov 2005 10:51 pm

Hey Carter........... I ended up in No Peddlers by accident last night but decided to check again today,

Use the ascending scale. The notes are......1.....2.....flat 3.....4 .....5......6.....7
for the melodic minor ascending.

The 7th mode has
1...flat 2.....flat3......flat4......flat5 ......flat6..flat7. Called super locrian, altered scale,pomeroy, diminished wholetone and other things I cant remember.

Mess around with it and here are some suggestions. See what you like.

Say for example your 5 dominant chord is A.....use super locrian starting on A.

If the progression is going from a 5 dominant to the 1 maj 7
or D maj 7 , try playing a dominant chord
with the root a tritone away on the last 2 beats of A before the 1 maj7 chord. (E flat dom 7 or dom 9 is the tritone substitute for A dom 7) This will give you basically a fully altered 5 chord.

Use super locrian from the root of the tritone substitute (Eflat super locrian).

Sometimes you hear Eflat mixolydian used on A dominant as well.

In summary, here is what can work......

A mixo over A7

Eflat mixo over A7

Eflat sup loc over A7

A mixo over Eflat 7

Eflat sup loc over E flat 7

All have a different sound, Some are more colorful than others.

All in the key of D maj and used on the V7
or tritone sub. Have fun.

Try out the 4th mode of ascending melodic minor as well. Called Lydian Dominant. It is the mixo with a raised 4th.
Easy way is to play a melodic minor off the 5 chords fifth degree(E).

In the key D the 5 is A. Notice how E melodic minor contains a B triad. Hook up some B triads over A 7 to get a nice lydian dominant sound.

Using things you know in different ways can help you get alot of mileage out of simple Ideas. My apologies for the long post.

------------------
Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 29 November 2005 at 11:13 PM.]

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