Why isn't Sho-Bud E9 LKL with angle offset more common?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 22 Sep 2007 4:18 pm

The way SD-10 Sho-Buds have the LKL knee lever moving at a more natural angle, connected to the cross rod with that long rod: why don't other steel manufacturers adopt that? Seems so much easier to play.

Is that pretty easy to add to a steel as a modification/upgrade?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 22 Sep 2007 6:38 pm

Like this?? (John Coop parts)
That angle sure makes it a natural movement.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 22 Sep 2007 8:48 pm

Thanks for the photo, James, yep, that's what I'm talking about.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 22 Sep 2007 11:24 pm

The reason why Sho~Buds have this angle is because Sho~Buds rock - and that's the bottom line.

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 22 Sep 2007 11:50 pm

Chris LeDrew wrote:The reason why Sho~Buds have this angle is because Sho~Buds rock - and that's the bottom line.

100% correct

. I love that angle on my Sho-Buds. It's so comfy!

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 23 Sep 2007 2:02 pm

When I ordered my new Carter S10 in February 2006, I requested that LKL be placed at a 20 degree angle. When I received it in April 2006, it was configured exactly as specified. LKL action is just like my Sho-Bud Pro-1.

Bud Carter did this at no extra charge.

Mike

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 23 Sep 2007 5:07 pm

On most modern guitars the knee lever movement is so short it doesn't make any difference, especially if you use the Day style floor pedal setup. This requires an extra shaft, supports, and linkage with ball joints to make it work right too, which means more weight. But, to each his own.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 23 Sep 2007 9:56 pm

I think even without the Sho-Bud linkage, most modern psg's would benefit from a curved paddle on the left knee levers. No matter how short the throw, your thigh is still sliding some small amount against a squared off metal object, because it can't physically go that 90 degree direction the kl itself travels in. Not very comfortable or ergonomic, imho.

For some reason my Mullen pre-RP has paddles on the RIGHT kl's, not the left, go figure.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 Sep 2007 7:33 am

Instead of mounting the knee lever at an angle, several of the builders are using knee levers with an angled paddle on them, and not just for the one under discussion. The results are the same.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Sep 2007 8:06 am

Hmmm,,,,,,,,,

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 24 Sep 2007 8:21 am

What about your right knee? Theoretically your leg is swinging on a radius from your hip joint, so your right knee levers are sliding also. It would be a little hard to mount all of them to travel at an angle, Especially, the guys with "Crawford clusters" and other multiple knee setups. If we're getting technical, it would depend on how long your legs are, and how far you sit from the guitar, as to what angle to mount the lever.

(I am an engineer, in case you couldn't tell

)

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 Sep 2007 8:26 am

Hmmmm,,,,

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Sep 2007 8:30 am

Ummm, hmmmm,,,

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 Sep 2007 8:41 am

Ummmmm, Hmmmmmm,,,,,

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Sep 2007 8:44 am

Bwaaa! Erv, you'll never be up the creek without a paddle!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 Sep 2007 8:51 am

John,
If there were any more knee levers, it would look like a porcupine!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Sep 2007 8:55 am

Erv, it almost looks like you have to sit down first, and then have the guitar lowered down onto you legs! I don't think anyone unfamiliar with your guitar would have a clue how to get their legs under it!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 24 Sep 2007 9:04 am

John,
No, there is no problem getting under the guitars. You don't need all the levers extended at one time. If you are playing the E9th neck, you can tuck the C6th levers up under the guitar and visa-versa. The 1st picture is of a Rains and the 2nd is a Williams. Both of these guitars have the center levers for the C6th neck and on your right knee, there are seperate levers for each of the two necks.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Sep 2007 9:17 am

Figured as much Erv! But I'd leave 'em all hangin' down just to freak people out!
Gotta get back to work on the old Shobud/Baldwin I'm restoring.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Sep 2007 3:56 pm

John McClung wrote:The way SD-10 Sho-Buds have the LKL knee lever moving at a more natural angle...why don't other steel manufacturers adopt that? Seems so much easier to play.

Because, for the vast majority of players, it's not really a big deal. To them, it probably doesn't make the guitar any easier to play.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 26 Sep 2007 6:48 am

Darvin Willhoite wrote:What about your right knee? Theoretically your leg is swinging on a radius from your hip joint, so your right knee levers are sliding also. It would be a little hard to mount all of them to travel at an angle, Especially, the guys with "Crawford clusters" and other multiple knee setups. If we're getting technical, it would depend on how long your legs are, and how far you sit from the guitar, as to what angle to mount the lever. (I am an engineer, in case you couldn't tell )

To me, It's more about WHERE you sit behind your guitar. If you sit behind the 14-15 fret, your LKL has more angle involved, than your RKR or RKL, which is pretty straight on. Your left leg has more distance to reach and activate that LKL. JMHO

Dennis Wallis · Post by **Dennis Wallis** » 26 Sep 2007 3:54 pm

I personally wish the guitar manufacturers would install ALL the knee levers to the back rail of the guitar like the old MSA's used to be. It makes them easily accessible and eliminates the need for extensions and you don't have to hunt for them and sit way up under the guitar. I'm sure it would be hard to do with 8 or 9 levers but for a 4 or 5 or even a 6 knee lever guitar it should be possible. It would be more comfortable for "some" of us taller people at least. Maybe it could be offered as an option. $:\$

Ray Satterfield · Post by **Ray Satterfield** » 26 Sep 2007 9:43 pm

I'm with you on that matter Dennis. My MSA had the easiest knees to operate, being on the back side. When I got my Emmons I had a hard time getting used to the right knees being in the middle of the cabinet.

(I still love it anyway though).

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 27 Sep 2007 9:51 pm

One reason NOT to have knee levers on the guitar rear apron is your leg is like a lever (or even a bell crank!), more power at the end of the lever, which is your knee. The further back towards the fulcrum (your hip) the kl is, the further you'd have to push to get the same action. Same principles that apply to placement of pull rods in bell cranks.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 28 Sep 2007 6:17 am

To have the knee levers on the back of the cabinet is fine for the C6th neck because you're positioned back farther for that neck, howerver, as John mentioned, you need the knee levers mounted more in the center of the cabinet for optimum performance. The knee levers should be positioned for your knee and not your thigh.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Why isn't Sho-Bud E9 LKL with angle offset more common?

Why isn't Sho-Bud E9 LKL with angle offset more common?

Re: Why isn't Sho-Bud E9 LKL with angle offset more common?