The Steel Guitar Forum

Tuesday night I had some guitar cords cutting out. In the process of elimination, I played without my Peavey Pro Fex II processor. All I had was my Emmons guitar, volume pedal, and Peavey Nashville 400 amp. I set all the tone controls on the Peavey amp at 12:00, reverb on 5. The sound I got was every bit as good as the sound using the effects processor. Then I hooked up a little floor delay unit and it sounded horrible compaired to using nothing but an amp. Today I played a big town fair. While on stage I used my Pro Fex II and flipped around to different settings while playing. I found my taste had changed and I liked the really bland programs, programs without much delay, reverb, or anything else. Not really much different that playing without an effect unit, and just using a guitar, pedal and amp. It made me start questioning myself, asking if my tastes about sound have changed.
I wondered if I had been hiding behind effects, like the guy who hides behind a muddy sound, afraid to turn up the trebble. It takes some guts to turn up trebble like Ralph Mooney. I am starting to think a person can convince himself a certain sound is great.
Maybe I am lucky to realize that sound is subjective to each individual who hears it. I am starting to understand that a person's taste in sound can change over time. I never dreamed in a million years that I would go to a playing job with only a guitar, pedal, and amp. I thought I had to have an effect unit. Maybe it is my time to concentrate more on how I play, rather than the effects I play through.

Bingo Keith. On many jobs now I use nothing but a touch of the Webb amp reverb. When I use my RV-3 its strictly very short delay. I heard a couple of players in the last year over using effects and I really think that they didn't realize it. It does take guts to turn up the treble. One of the reasons that I am into the west coast sound its because of that Mooney/Brumley treble sound. It has actually made me a much more precise player because you have to be very accurate. The ZB guitars that I play also have narrow string spacing. Interesting observation Keith.

Since buying my 112 two years ago I haven't found the need for any effects. The amp reverb is perfect just by itself.

For two decades a played thru a Fender Twin with only amp reverb..

I am thinking that playing without effects ( slap delay for me ) is not a bad thing, or a necessary thing, just a thing.

I don't think it's an issue if they are "NEEDED", they are not needed, but a players execution style can change with some added effects. Thats a good thing.

I have always been a fan of very limited effects , probably because I worked so long without them. Now, a gentle single slap 350 ms delay is part of my "THING" and there are some phrases that really come to life with it.

Can I play without it ? sure, but do I want to ?
no..

I use a Nash 112 and I'll use a little delay and amp reverb. If I record using my amp I record dry, maybe alittle delay if that. The older I get the more I realize less is better.

Tony

Lynn Owsley, Billy Robinson or none of the other Steelers who played the Derby Room used any effects.
Just an amp and Vol pedal.

That is kinda funny because today we are playing for a luncheon at Lawton and all i am taking is my guitar-vol pedal and N-ville 112. Played thru it last night and thought it was good. Thank,s Keith==JIm Harper

Ditto on the "treble" issue. Same gos for six-string, especially as a Tele player. A Tele is unforgiving, clear, bright, and "in your face" by nature - even when run through distortion units that character comes through. But since most 6-stringers never seem to learn what the tone knob on the guitar does, they dial out the treble at the amp, which makes it sound even worse; dead, dull, lifeless...and yes, gutless. While I prefer a tone with a nice midrange punch and really do not care for the "Don Rich" Tele tone...often known as the "icepick" tone, as an icepick-in-the-ear, I do like clear treble, and you DO - no matter wheher you're playing steel or six-string - have to have some sack to dial it up.

I am a self-confessed effects junky (who is FNALLY selling off a few redundant items). However, while I'll have an effects board (even with steel) that has anywhere from 6 t0 maybe 18 pedals with splitters, buffers, etc., I don't play with them on most of the time. I play a different steel tonal style than almost anyone, with a more "edgy" sound. strong upper-mids, tight but "cannon fire" bass - kind of like a cross between a Les Paul and Tele played through a mid-size Fender-ish amp on the edge of distortion, and pushed over that edge using a volume control on the guitar - and my effects use is more "guitar like". Each one has a very specific purpose, and all are used quite sparingly except for delay, which I use almost all the time in lieu of reverb (I much prefer a short delay with a few repeats to spring or digital reverb, although THEY have uses for me as well).

Few things make me want to run for cover faster than hearing a guitar or steel player play with a chorus or phase shifter on ALL the time. When I use one, it's maybe on ONE solo, or the chorus (but not verse) of a song, etc. And I have some more exotic pedals that change your whole sound - a Lovetone Brown Source, for example; I can play through a Fender Vibroverb with my normal semi-clean tone, then engage the Brown Source and it instantly changes to the sound of the same guitar played through an old 50-watt Marshall stack. I'll play a whole song and just use the Lovetone for a solo, or on an outro for "flavor".

I have a mess of delay units that borders on lunacy (tape, rotating disk, analog, tube-based tape emulator, digital rack, digital stompbox with an analog-like "crap factor" built in, delay modeler, and a couple boutique units. Every single one sounds different. You can set them all at 300 ms with the same repeat rate and same mix, and they STILL don't sound alike (even the modeler's patches vary slightly from the units it copies...not making it bad, making it 15 MORE delays to work with).

And still, other than a sub for reverb, they are only used for short stints; maybe one song a set, or one song a gig.

I'm admittedly "tonally-anal", and I ( and quite a few others) hear things most players don't. The really dumb thing is that the average non-playing listener usually can't tell the difference between good and bad tone at all. BUT - for many players (like me), great tone, or great effects sounds are inspiring, and cause us to play better, more creatively, with more "passion", "fire", etc. When it sounds "just right" I go into a creative zone where I later couldnot tell you a thing about what I played - I'd have to hear a recording.

For many players, NO effects is the way to get to that spot. They try all sorts of stuff because they've been told they NEED an "overdrive", or something "swirly"(faux-Leslie, chorus, etc). And they can spend thousands of dollars chasing an elusive sound that is really just in their attack and style, guitar's tone, and amp/speaker. And the really foolish (IMO) things I see are players spending money and/or asking tons of questions about effects when they play through a cheap one-dimensional amp.

Find the perfect amp for you (which usually will be more than one, based on where you play; I use at least a half-dozen regularly as the best sound is an amp driving hard,so it takes small amps in small venues and big ones at outdoor gigs to get a decent tone) and get the amps dialed-in perfectly. Whether tube or solid state, have them serviced, and things adjusted until you are getting the best natural sound you can.

THEN mess with effects. But you can't judge the usefulness of quality effects pedals...heck, even cheapo effects...unless your basic tonal platform is sound. A guy with a $250 used SS amp that's never been serviced and has the original budget speaker is going to have a hard time getting a good sound out of any effect, since he's starting from a bad position.

And effects will not make up for bad tone or bury bad playing.

Keith, I thought your tone was exceptional the other night at Nixa. The only thing I would have done differently would have been brighten the bass range a little which would also carry over to the mids (but that is my preferred tone). Your highs were perfect to my ear anywhere in the room. I think you are right about the effects unit. Your amp got an immediate rich presence when you unhooked the profex. I still like to use my Lexicon (delay and chorus) when we play a song that had those effects, like "Cherokee Fiddle". You are definately ready for the KSGA Route 66 Bash. Most steel players don't ever get to play behind a singer with the caliber of Gary Atkins. He is one of the best all-around singers I have ever heard. Wish I could be there to hear you guys in Kansas next month.

Hey guys! Congratulations to each of you.

You've finally discovered what some of us olde timers realized in the late 1940's and early 1950's. We never went to a gig with more than a guitar, foot pedal and amp.

This, for me, continued on thro' the late 1960's.

It wasn't until I attended several of Jeff Newman's fine seminars that I discovered the world of 'black boxes' and various noise makers. Lot's of excitement there, for sure. In many instances they were indeed valued musical enhancements. HOWEVER....
When carried to the extreme, it gets sorta ridiculous, doesn't it? Some folks, go thro' so many different units that you can barely detect the originally plucked sound. What a shame.

For a much needed touch of reality, I kept returning to the olde Billy Robinson recordings with Red Foley and Jerry Byrd, of course, with all of the many, many artists with whom he recorded. No affects units whatsoever.

Just straight music, talent and style. After all, isn't that what we're all attempting to achieve?

Good Luck to you!

If I could expand on something Rick said,,Some effects units may use the technology of 'sampling' the guitar as it comes in -then effects added in the digital domain then outputted. I think we all know that a sampled signal is going to lose some of the natural warmth and sometimes even turn yechky. Instaed, an 'external mixing' patch-up can be used. i.e. Run the guitar signal direct into the amp, then mix in the digital reverb echo etc from a differnt mixer channel which is being input from a split from the guitar signal. (of course turn the 'dry' signal off coming from the effects units). So even if the effects are less than pristine, the guitar itself is always totally analog.
With me effects is , like, it's nice to have a full array, just so you can choose not to use them.

Keith-Back in the older days, we mostly all played without effects.Then The Echo-Plex came out , with Les Paul doing his thing, and from there on , it never was the same. I never used an effect device most of my playing life. Just a good amp, and volume pedal. But eventually I did try a few things, one that I liked was the RV3, as my old crate amp does not have a good reverb. But when I had the old Fender Twins, Showmans, I didn't need anything else.
and now, the new peaveys are great too.
In the last few years, Keith, thanks to you, the biggest improvement in my pure tone was with your new volume pedal, and it also gave my
amp more power by not draining the power like the old pot. That is important if you have a small low powered amp like my 40 Watt Crate....al.:)

The Nawlins type band I play bass in was recently auditioning guitarists. We ran through about 6 or 7. Yea, one of the guys came in with a pdal board with 18 effects on it!!! Yikes.

The guy who got the gig? Tele player and the only thing between him and his Tone King Meteor II amp was a Korg Tuning Pedal.

Pedals? We don't need no stinking pedals!

SS

Keith,

I was playing a VFW last week, started losing signal
Ended up disconnecting reverb, delay and match box
Went from pedal to NV400 and like you, couldn't believe the sound, really clean. What I had been
looking for all this time. Proof-in-the-puddin,
will it sound that good next show.

Larry

Just straight music, talent and style. After all, isn't that what we're all attempting to achieve?

Well, the implication there is that everyone is trying to acheive clean, clear, tone with perfect articulation and string separation.

I don't think that's correct at all. Many players are looking for a more "textural" sound at times, - more indistinct, but "filling out" the sound of a band. That's where goodies like delays and harmonizers come in, and combined with certain types of distortion and volume swells (or types of limter/compression applications) can get you the sound of a string section.

Or a gadget like a Korg G4, where in stereo applications it can sound like 4 guitars, each playing in the corner of a room - a very stunning effect used sparingly.

My point is we're not ALL looking for the same thing - that's what makes music an individual thing, and sound can be as much a part of that as style.

When I played in the bands of local singers Bobby Cahill and the late Jerry Eugene my job was to provide a variety of textures, and so I used a lot of different effects. But when in 2001 I joined an all instrumental experimental music I didn't use any, because I wanted people to hear the sound of the steel.

At my recent concert I only used a POD, with a clean default setting that sounds really good on the steel. The only effect I used was reverb.

(Edited for spelling)

I have to admit that I too am an effects junkie..I love the swirlies, the loops, the ambient textures, and with the pedal steel, even moreso than with 6 string, you can do so much more of that. That said, lately we've been playing what I can only call "fast setup" gigs, and so I've been paring down my rig accordingly. I can honestly say that I can go either way at this point.

Generally, as Jim says, a tone knob that works is an amazing help in these areas. I confess I still don't have the cojones to crank it open--the Fender I play has a "spot" which "eases in" the treble, and I rarely go too far past that spot....*sigh* someday soon perhaps. Most of my night is spent clean and unaffected though, other than the amps reverb and built in trem.

As Tony said, could I do shows with just guitars and amp? you bet, but some of my favorite players are texturalists, as opposed to lick masters...in fact, just came back from an outdoor Wilco show on Wednesday, and it was nothing short of brilliant in the textural department....enough rambling.

I'm hoping to get to see some of you MO steelers soon...I got the comment up here in Columbia that there were none of us around:/

A

For some 20 years or so, I didn't use anything but a little reverb. Nowadays, I add a little delay, very little at times with the reverb and that's it. I still believe that's the real test on what a particular guitar sounds like with amp, volume pedal and guitar. That was my test for buying guitars for a long time, just plug it in and play it.

We are here Aaron, just pretty spread out. Hope to meet you soon.

Keith Hilton wrote: All I had was my Emmons guitar, volume pedal, and Peavey Nashville 400 amp.

I saw my buddy Mike Johnson play night before last and that was his setup exactly. It's fun to watch a player like this achieve the sound he wants solely through technique. I heard Mike's signature sounds through this simple setup, as well as a great imitation of John Hughey's Conway work on covers like "15 years ago." The steel->vol pedal->amp lineup cannot be underestimated .

I've tried many effects over the years and lately have defaulted to the amp reverb in my Evans SE200 which is digital. I also use a BossTone for distortion on rock tunes. Every Profex I ever tried robbed lots of highs, I would never buy on for that reason.

I'm not going to get into the tone issue but I will agree with you Keith that you're thoughts on the type of tone your ears like may change. Mine does. I am always experimenting with tone. Right now I am back on the tube kick and I love it. The little Evans I have has tone to the bone, especially for a ten each speaker but I don't care for it's reverb. The only thing I am using my profex for is to get a better verb and delay. I guess when we get satisfied is when it get dangerous! heheehehe
Aaron I live at Lake of the Ozarks. Dan Hatfield lives in Columbia and here. We're everywhere, we just like being incognito!!!!!

Generally, as Jim says, a tone knob that works is an amazing help in these areas. I confess I still don't have the cojones to crank it open--the Fender I play has a "spot" which "eases in" the treble, and I rarely go too far past that spot....*sigh* someday soon perhaps.

Aaron, I would not worry about it. I had extensive discussions with Fender designers (both guitar and steel over the years - including Leo, when his G&L shop was literally around the corner from my office) and they meant the tone control to be just that - a *control*. Most of the "big" guys - Leo, Fullerton, White, Tavares...and Don Randall, at the seperate Sales "division" - really disliked the "dimed" tone control sound. Guys on stage playing like that would be victimized periodically by Leo (if he was in the audience) actually climbing on stage during a set and adjusting the amp settings for LESS treble to try to compensate!

Most Tele players find the "sweet spot" (depending on pickup height and, on early ones, luck of the draw regarding winding) to be (on "later" guitars where the tone control worked on the bridge pickup by itself) to be with the tone control rolled off 25% or so. It's interesting that the early models and Esquires with the bypassed tone control position are not as "icepicky" as when a tone control is dimed - which seems to make no sense, since the control is passive/subtractive and can't "add" treble...but that's the reality.

Anyway - on a Fender steel, you have the same scenario - the intended "sweet spot" is with the tone control rolled off a little. I only run it wide open when using an amp with heavy mids for more cutting power, like a wide-panel Deluxe or BF Vibroverb. The "wide open" treble sound was popularized by the "Bakersfield sound" - but it was not Fender's favorite, nor that of many others (personally, I love a lot of the Bakersfield-influenced playing, which I found the "back way" through Clarence White and Bob Warford - but that full-treble sound on both the guitars AND Twins is just not my tonal preference...I can only handle it in limited doses.

It may seem off the subject as far as "effects" go - but a volume/tone circuit on a guitar is an "effect" itself - one sadly missing from most modern steels. "Oh, you just do the same thing with the volume pedal and amp controls"; nope, there's a totally different and symbiotic relationship between the guitar mounted circuits and external controls.

Another opinion .....
I've used stomp boxes on occassion over the years. Always dependent upon the type of music the band is playing. Or, a situation of duplicating a sound of a given recording on a particular song.
I use delay and reverb settings to keep a balance with room ambience. I found little need for delay and reverb playing at Mermac Caverns.
And then there's the issue of being at the mercy of the sound man if you're running through the board.
Each brand, model of amp, tube vs solid state and speaker will produce a final outcome of your desire sound.
Using the best quality equipment that you can afford is another issue.
Then there's your aging and volume damaged ear As soon as your ears stop bleeding and scab over, your frequency reception changes.

Scotty, what are you doing playing through a 10 inch speaker? That really seems strange. The older some people get, the more change becomes more difficult. I try my best to avoid becoming stuck in a rut, and it is not easy. I have listened to the Peavey 112 miked and run through a P.A., and they sound great. I have listened to a Peavey 112 without going through the P.A. system. I can't force myself to like a 12 inch speaker, and I can hear the part that is missing from a 15 inch speaker. Maybe liking the 15 inch speaker is an old guy stuck in a rut. What do you think Scotty? Here is something to ponder. I saw some really nice powered floor monitors, JBLs and Peaveys. Some had 15 and 18 inch speakers with horns. I need to try them out, because they really looked good. Of course, if you went that way, you would need a pre-amp with tone controls. Have any of you tried floor monitors as your speakers? That is the way I usually position my amp anyway, so the 45 degree angle would be great and I wouldn't have to tilt my amp backwards. One other think Scotty, years ago Dewayne Boman fired me. Dewayne seems to be a different person today. Scotty, do you think I need to wear the outfit on my Rockabilly CD when we play in Baxter Springs?