amps suitable for steel

[Phil Halton]

I'm wondering what makes a guitar amp suitable or not suitable for steel guitars. There's alot of guitar amps, but I notice the discussion of amps centers around a select few brands/models. I'm currently using a Peavey 30 watt keyboard amp for my carter starter, and want to upgrade to something a little better. I know, its me--not the amp, but I still think I could do a little better than the Peavey KBA30.

The NV112 looks like the most likely candidate, but there are alot of used amps around, and I'd like to know what I might look for, or look to avoid, in guitar amps for use with steel guitar.

[Charles Davidson]

The NV-112 is a great amp.Since I got mine,don't have to lug those heavy monsters around anymore,The best thing it gets the job done.

[David Doggett]

A steel amp needs lots more clean headroom than a guitar amp. The kind of two- and three-string sustained and swelled harmony you play on steel just does not work unless the amp plays very clean with no distortion. In addition, steelers use the volume pedal to sustain. Typically notes (or chords) will be attacked with the volume pedal backed off, and the pedal will be used to add more volume to sustain long notes and chords. If the volume pedal is backed off two-thirds for the attacks, then you will need an amp at least three times more powerful than the guitar players you are playing with. Furthermore, guitar usually sounds best when the amp is near maximum volume, especially if it is a tube amp. Whereas, for clean playing, a steeler does not want to be near the top volume of his amp. So you really want an amp about 4 times more powerful than a guitar player.

Guitar players usually don't understand the steeler's need for a big powerful amp. For them, a big powerful amp means very high volume. But that's not why steelers use them. Steelers need big powerful amps to get adequate clean headroom and sustain with the volume pedal. The way you know your amp is too small is if your volume pedal is bumping at maximum and you are running out of sustain.

So in venues where the guitar players are using 10-50 watt amps, a steeler needs 100 watts or more. The smallest solid-state amp that is popular with steelers these days is the Peavey Nashville 112, with 80 watts. The other SS steel amps in Peavey's Nashville line are 200-300 watts. Solid-state amps are popular with steelers because compared to tube amps they are clean playing, powerful, lightweight, and inexpensive. For tube tone, the old Fender silver-face amps from the '70s have the power and clean headroom needed for steel (Twin, Dual Showman, Vibrosonic, Super Twin). The myriad of 10-50 watt tube guitar amps out there today are mostly not very good for steel. Their tone is set too bright, and they begin to distort before the volume knob is halfway up.

Having said all that, there are many steelers who play in very quiet settings, and so who get by with amps much smaller than the ones mentioned above. If you don't play in loud honky-tonks and rock clubs, you might be one of those.

The reason you only see a few amps discussed among steelers is that very few amps are made for steel, compared to the hundreds of models made for guitar.

[Paul Norman]

I bought a Peavey Express 112 one time because I
got a good price. The speaker in this regular
guitar amp doesn;t have enough travel to get the
sound. So I bought a Blue Marvel Nashville 112
speaker. This helped, but I found out the pre-amp
has to be matched so I still didn't have the right
amp and now I have almost as much money as if I had
got a Nashville 112 to begin with.
So I got a Nashville 112. Now I am happy.
The amp is designed to be a steel amp all around.

[Alan Brookes]

My very first amp was a valve(tube) Marshall, which I played for years in England. My only problem with it was the amplifier hum, but I used it on all the steels I built until I moved to California in 1980, when I decided it was too heavy to send, and I thought bringing an English amplifier to the States was like carrying coals to Newcastle. (I don't know how many Americans understand that expression, but Newcastle is one of the main coal exporters in Europe.) I sold that amp.

My first amp after moving to California was a Fender Vibro Champ, which has a nice, warm tube sound. I play for my own amusement in my sub-basement, so I don't want to shake the walls and annoy the neighbors. (The walls shake enough round here with the frequent earthquakes on the Hayward Fault !)


Then I bought a Fender DEC, which is a solid-state amp using the same case as the Vibro-Champ, but it has built in effects, rhythm generation and MIDI in/out. To my ears none of the pre-programmed guitar effects works with steel.


Then I bought a Peavey Session 400 LTD. A great (and very heavy !) amp, and a lot of steelers swear by it, but it doesn't give me the sound I'm looking for.

Most recently I bought a Peavey Nashville 112, which is the best amp I've worked with so far.


An adjunct to this thread would be which processors do you use.

I have a BoBro, which I've never managed to get to sound like a Dobro, no matter which amp I use it with, yet when I watch the Bobbe Seymour demo he uses the same amp as I'm using, so it must be something to do with the tone settings.

I also have a Jatom EC-4000 Reverb unit and a WEM Copycat tape-loop echo unit from the 50s.

Another factor would be which instrument you're using. Some amps work better for some guitars. I'm mainly using a Sho-Bud Crossover, bur when I plug in a lap steel I get a different sound, no matter which amp I'm using. Has anyone looked into which amps go best with which guitars ?

[Jim Sliff]

A steel amp needs lots more clean headroom than a guitar amp.

Sorry, David, but I think that's an assumption that is not as true as it once was.

That statement cannot me qualified unless you know what kind of music the steeler is playing. I can handle everthing from Burrtos/Byrds type stuff to blues rock and straigt-up blues with a good guitar amp - set up as a good guitar amp. My current favorite is my 35 watt Holland Little Jimi, but my Vibroverb or Pro Reverb run a in a tie for second.

IF the person asking plays straight cuntry and needs squeaky-clean steel, then the headroom issue is more important (but can also be overcome with tube amps if a tech knows what he's doing). But unless that question is answered, the "you MUST have more headroom than a guitar amp can provide" statement is not applicable - and as has been stated before, it's nt all that applicable REGARDLESS - the history of Peavy and their SS steel guitar amps has pretty much colored the perception of a lot of folks, to the point they've become convinced that tube guitar amps can't cut it.

And that's wrong.

I don't dispute that tose amps DO work for most steel applications - but there are other choices, many from the guitar world, that steelers ignore. Peavey's done one heck of a marketing job, I'll give 'em that!

[Eric Jaeger]

Whooo boy. This question has been bounced around in one form or another all over this forum section for, literally, years. I'm not being dismissive in saying that, either, just that there is a lot of year useful information in there.

Jim and Dave's opinions are just the tip of the iceberg. They both have excellent reasons and a lot of experience backing up those opinions, as well, so a lot of your response is going to depend on your own ear and tastes. Personally, I don't think there's a single good/bad choice, and PSG started out being played through guitar amps (mostly Fenders). Over the years other choices became available (solid state, for example) and some people preferred that.

That said, generally I'm with Jim on using guitar amps. Lately I've been playing through a Victoria 35115 (Victoria's rendition of a tweed Pro - 35 watts and a 15" speaker). If it has a single bad sound in it I haven't found it yet. I don't know what it's doing, but it makes *everything* sound good.

Go ahead and try as many options as you can, and keep some straight guitar amps on the list (there's another thread going right now on the subject of using a 22-watt Deluxe Reverb for steel). Have fun with it!

-eric

[Mike Perlowin]

I used to have a Peavey LTD 400 as well as my Music Man HD 212. I found that the Peavey (which was stolen in 1983 or 4, along with a beautiful MSA Vintage XL SD-12 and one of the 2 string steel E-bows) was a better on steel amp, but I could never get what I considered a good guitar or mandolin sound out of it. The Music Man, which I still have, was never as good for steel as the Peavey, but it is certainly good enough, and it makes every instrument I play through it sound good.

Of course, the best sound was the 2 amps together.

I recently acquired a POD XT, a Carvin stereo power amp, and 2 Peavey Black Widows on separate cabinets. That seems to work really well well. Moreover, while the combined weight of the components is greater than the Music man, no single component is more than 40 pounds and it doesn't break my back to carry it all around.

[Ernie Pollock]

This one works for me, SE150
Ernie Pollock

[George Redmon]

My good friend Bob Carlucci has been using old Fender Bassmans with holy grail reverbs, and other fender amps for years and swears by them. And if you've ever heard bob pick, you know he has a tone to die for. No one wrote any rules in stone.

[Leander Willie]

Howdy Phil, I'm using a SE200 Evans amp with a profex11 and a hilton foot pedal ,picking a MSA D10 classic 1980 year with super suistain pickups, and I want to tell you the sound is supper. My buddie said I sound like the great John Hughey, I think he was just trying to make me feel good, but the sound is really good. I've got the profex11 on the great Lloyd Green, Mike Brown at peavey plant in Ms set the profex with all the good steel players on it, my sound is best with the Lloyd Green2 setting
-Leander Willie- E mail leanderwillie@yahoo.com

[David Doggett]

For the record, yes I assumed with a Carter Starter Phil is like 99% of pedal steel players and forumites and seeks to play with typical country pedal steel tone. He seemed to be asking about typical amps for pedal steel and their difference from guitar amps, which is what I discussed. In addition to a solid-state steel amp (Peavey NV 400) which I rarely play, I have tube guitar amps ranging from 10 watts to 180 watts, mostly Fender silver-faces.

When I play pedal steel in blues groups I sometimes take an amp with about half the power I would take to a country or country-rock gig. But all too often, with a pedal steel present, even a blues group wants to do a country number or two. When that happens, and I only have a blues amp, I play the country poorly with thin breaking-up tone, and with my volume pedal bumping and running out of sustain. I curse my lack of foresight. My solution is to take a big tube amp (preferably a head) with excess power and clean headroom. For the blues I use the best distortion stomp box I have been able to find (Seymour Duncan Twin Tube), with mild distortion dialed in, and in front of the volume pedal, to give pick sensitivity. If a country number comes up, I turn off the box and let the big clean tube amp do its thing. With today's technology you can easily add as much or as little distortion as needed. But if the clean headroom ain't there when you need it, you're just out of luck.

[Jerry Malvern]

Phil, I would take a good hard look at Dave's last post. He is ready for anything that comes his way at a gig. But you did not say what you want to have the amp do, ie home practice, gigs and the style of music your playing or how much weight your willing to lug around. Webb, Evans and Peavey designed an amp for steel players, because there is a genuine need for them, just as you found out by using an amp made for keys. And there have been several posts here on the forum from the guys who double on both steel and 6 string and want to bring only one amp to the gig, and their attempt to get a good sound on both. I'm sure there is exceptions, but most guitar amps, out of the box, perform marginally for steel.

[James Morehead]

Great explanation, David. I myself like to have a powerful tube amp and have lots of ADEQUATE headroom. My favorite is a '71 twin reverb. I can "dirty up" with an effects pedal, an amp with lots of clean headroom for the few times I play rock, but I can't get enough headroom with a small amp that gets dirty too soon. My favorite solid state amp is my Standel Custom 15. It's only 70 watts though--a little light for a solidstate, but it has INCREDIBLE tone. I can "mike" it if I need to.

Jim Sliff has some good points from his area of music interest, but the majority of steel players tend to be needing maximum power for clean headroom, as they are mostly country pickers. So, as Jim says, depends on your musical interest------------------

For someone just getting into steel, any small amp will work at home until you are ready to go out live somewhere.

[Mike Brown]

Since the steel guitar has the capability of producing the very low end range of the frequency spectrum to the extreme high range of the spectrum, adequate headroom(clean power) is essential when performing on large stages. In general, it is a proven fact that low frequencies require more power. High frequency components do not require as much power.

So, when a steeler is plucking the low B note on his/her C6th neck or a universal tuning is being played, this is when headroom is very important.

A very good speaker is just as important for an opened back cabinet design. If the speaker cannot handle the power and the excursion limits that are needed to help produce the lower frequencies, then you are in trouble. This is what happened with the first JBL speakers that we used back in the '70's, ie; they could not handle the power. Hence, the birth of the Peavey Black Widow.

I would guess that the majority of steelers perform in smaller venues these days, but in the '70's, adequate sound systems were not available for miking amplifiers(ask Jerry Brightman when he performed with Buck Owens). The instrument amplifiers onstage had to carry the sound throughout the venue where sound systems were insufficient or almost non-existant. Audio has come a long way from those days.

So you say, "why does the 80 watt Nashville 112 work for most applications then?". Believe me, we were as surprised as anyone to find out that 80 watts was enough for most. But, I believe that some pro users are right on the verge..................and this "growl" is what they like. To each his own. But, to others 80 watts is insufficient. Let's face it, most of us locate their steel amp within arms length for control adjustments and more importantly, to stay on pitch. Some players use ear monitors. Others use the 200 watt range amplifiers on loud stages. So, there is a need for 200 and 300 watt steel amplifiers, just as in sound systems.

We will continue to build the best steel guitar amplifiers in the business using our 33 years plus of R & D knowledge. If you have questions, please do not hesitate to contact me here at Peavey by phoning toll free at 1-877-732-8391, ext. 1180. By the way, I hope to see and speak with you at the upcoming St. Louis Steel Guitar Convention on Labor Day Weekend.

[Rick Winfield]

ALAN, what did you think of your Marshall and PSG??
I have a JCM 800 100 watt,(2 channel) tube head with the typical 4x12 celsetion cab. At first I wasn't sure, but now I'm either getting used to it, or it's doing one heck of a job. I don't play PSG in public(yet) so I keep the volume turned down, but I like it!!
I also use a 500 watt Fender powered mixer head, with a "red box"( hughes & kettner ?) for direct input from the volume pedal.
Still prefer tube sounds though. Maybe when I'm good enough to get on stage with it, I can open 'em both up a make a better judgement.
I do love that Marshall though !!

[Mike Brown]

To get a good "feel" of the difference in sound, I highly recommend that you try an amplifier that has been specifically voiced for steel guitar.

[Phil Halton]

Jerry and everyone, I'm a very soon-to-be owner of a Peavey Session 400, and I figure my search is over for a while regarding amps. Honestly, I have no idea what I want from an amp--I just know I want to play steel on good equipment. It was the same 30 or so years ago when I bought my first pro model 5-string banjo. I knew enough to know I didn't know anything about pro banjos, so I bought on brand figuring I couldn't really go to far wrong with a Gibson Mastertone RB-250. It gave me plenty of room for growing into the banjo, and I figure this amp will give me plenty of growing room for steel playing as well. At least until I know too much to be easily satisfied.

[James Morehead]

Phil, If you are getting a session 400, especially the older model, you will be in tone heaven. The older session 400's with the chrome knobs are legendary in the Peavey steel amp lineup. I have the opportunity to play through that same amp, and it's an awesome amp!! But I am still a tube junky---so my Fender twin is my fave.

[Josh Jones]

I know almost everyone can usually get a great sound from whatever amp they have, but I have always been a huge fan of simplicity. I currently play a Nashville 1000 on the road for several reasons. I love the fact that I have plenty of power at my fingertips if I ever need it. I also enjoy the fact that I only have one amp to load in the bus at the end of the night. It has been the best amp for me that I have found so far. I would love to try some of these other amps though just to see how they sound. There are certainly a lot of options out there.

[Mike Brown]

Thanks for the support Josh, and all the rest of the players that chimed in!

[Jerry Hayes]

Phil, if you're in the market for a used amp that will do the job, here's a couple that I use regularly with no problems. (Neither is for sale though).....The first is an old discontinued Peavey hybrid amp called the MX. These little beauties have a 12" Black Widow speaker, four 6L6 power tubes and a solid state preamp side. The have a lot of punch and can be found at a very reasonable price in pawn shops at times & used stores like Cash Converters. I have two of 'em and won't part with either.

The other "cheapie" used amp is an old Randall RG-80 which is an 80 watt solid state amp mostly designed for rock guitar but works surprisingly well on steel guitar. Both of the amps I mentioned are about the same dimensions of a Nashville 112 but the Randall is a much lighter amp.....

I also have a Peavey Stereo Chorus 400 which I like a lot for steel and bought in a pawn shop for $239.......quite a deal....JH in Va.

[Alan Brookes]

ALAN, what did you think of your Marshall and PSG??

Unfortunately, Rick, I never got to try that combination. I played for decades on non-pedal when I was in England, and I was very pleased with the sound of the Marshall on that. The valves gave it a nice warm sound, and I loved the built-in tremolo. But I didn't take up pedal steel until years after I moved to California, and by that time the Marshall was long gone. Since then I've been in the world of Fenders and Peaveys, all of which are good amplifiers.

[Jerry Roller]

I have tried just about every amp I am familiar with and at this time, the Peavey amps whether it be Nashville 112, Vegas 400 or Session 400 suits me best. I make it fine with any of these. My very favorite combination is the Sarno Revelation thru a pair of Nashville 112's.
Jerry

[Dan Tyack]

IMHO the solid state amp for pedal steel craze started in the 70s when there was no sound reinforcement to speak of for country acts. I know I never had a mike on my amp in a decade of touring in and out of Nashville. Something like the Session 400 was a total godsend, because it was light and really really loud. I think most steel players just got used to the sound and the weight.

I take a somewhat contrary approach to David. I use a nice low volume tube amp (a THD univalve or BiValve). If I need more stage volume, I just take the line out from the amp (post power amp stage) and amplify that with something like the Crate PowerBlock (or a VHT 2-90-2 if my back is up to it) into a seperate speaker. I really like the sound of power tubes complaining. Even for a country gig. It makes everything sound fat.