The Steel Guitar Forum

Responding to some recent SGF postings that suggest a quick review of the benefits of the 6th tuning and simple modal theory might be beneficial; Here's expounding on why I highly suggest the 6th tuning to learn Steel from:

The fretboard math / layout of the 6th tuning inherently stacks all the notes of all 7 "church" mode scales into VERY SIMPLE 2-fret-span boxes, ....one 2-fret-span box along the neck for each mode. Modes and their names are NOTHING more than shorthand words/labels for the 7 scales and their chords that are harmonious to each other (easier to say/write " G Aolean" rather than "G minor seven flat 6" or "Pure G minor" etc), and that we already use in our playing anyway, whether we realize it or not. For a Player that isn't familiar with modes, the concept at first APPEARS to be difficult BUT IT ISN'T; IT'S EXTREMELY SIMPLE once a quite small amount of prerequisite music theory is reviewed. MANY Players have tried to study modes but gave up because most of the teaching / learning material on modes is about the barn door to the vast abstract of Music that the modes open up to Players, with very little material published about the profound functional simplicity the modes also afford ...ESPECIALLY to Steel Guitar; And I have spent the last 7 years or-so to present the profoundly simple math and functions of the modes. The mathematical nature of modes is that any notes, scales or chords of any of the "church" modes will be harmonious to any other notes, scales or chords being played within the modal structure (and the vast majority of popular music is within the VERY SIMPLE "church" mode structure). It is indeed that congruent harmony of all notes that most Musicians sense and strive for in playing; And indeed the SIMPLE modal structure is what makes that happen, whether a Player realizes it or not. Here is a good / short / simple primer for Steel Guitar.

The inherent fretboard math / layout of the 6th tuning affords a 2-fret-span box along the neck for each mode. HOWEVER, when even one note is added to or subtracted from the 1, 3, 5, 6 sequence of the 6th tuning (such as adding the 4 note via the 6add11 tuning), ...the simple box structure of the 6th tuning's mode structure becomes fragmented and displaced from the simple 2-fret-span mode boxes (illustrated in the charts I previously linked in that discussion / message chain), ...and the simplicity of the 6th tuning mode boxes is lost to a vast abstract of both fragmented and total fretboard layout in the different tuning. Such fragmented / abstract fretboard math layout is very difficult for most folks to memorize / visualize as a whole, and thereby leaves them with fragments (we often call "Licks") as a playing inventory rather than the simple and full picture of the fretboard layout that is afforded by the 6th tuning providing the simple "church" mode structure. Even the simpler triad-only tunings popular for Resonator and Slide guitar are better understood by knowing the modal structure and what is dropped / fragmented in the boxes of the triad-only tunings. CAVEAT: Once the quite simple 6th tuning modal structure is studied and grasped, then the tunings that branch off in fragmented / displaced patterns of other tunings is MUCH easier to understand and utilize.

AND, it is not neccessary to learn the modal structure and functions of the 6th tuning, because it naturally provides the simplicity in it's fretboard layout, ...ALTHOUGH the "church" modal structure is by far the easiest and fullest template / means to visualize and navigate the Steel fretboard ....IMHO ....and apparantly in the opinion of many others.

Some Fo'Bro's have suggested that the modal structure works with any tuning, ...which is true if simple congruent layout is not a factor, ...but in a quite fragmented / displaced sense which is clearly illustrated by the 6add11 charts I've referenced in this discussion chain, which requires a pretty good intermediate to advanced level of knowledge to grasp if a Player desires the full picture rather than fragments of chords / "Licks" / etc.

I hope this helps in the search for the "silver bullet" and "R" chord.

Aloha,
DT~
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 August 2005 at 04:00 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Denny, now I remember your thread on C6/11. I printed out the charts and after seeing words like Mixolydian and Phrygian, I knew I was in trouble. My ignorance and my brain just shut down. Now I see I am going to have to go back and take a second look.

Thanks, Kris. That's why I thought a recap was in order; Rather common in fighting the misconception of modes being inherently difficult.

Aloha,
DT~
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 August 2005 at 07:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

Hey Denny, here's a thought...

Why don't you pull out your video camera, setup some basic backing tracks and tape this stuff for people like me.
I've read and re-read Threadzilla and it just doesn't sink in.
I've always learned better when I had visual and sound examples to go along with reading materials.
I would be the FIRST in line to buy it from you.

Jay

Denny, Very confusing indeed. I definitely lack the prerequsite music theory because it does not appear to me to be "extremely simple". Part of the confusion for me is you use numbers instead letters to designate notes. When I read sheet music for my uke, I see notes rather than numbers. Anyway, are you saying that unadultered C6 tuning is the easiest way to learn steel guitar as visualized by your modal concept? In the C scale 1,3,5,6 is C,E,G,A and in C6/11 tuning you are adding 11 or F or 4. So by adding F, the shared notes in each mode become more fragmented? And Chuck Lettes likes to add a low F. Gee, I am not sure I even know what I am talking about. I am definitely going to have to use your "read it five times" rule and start with your basic music theory lesson at www.homestead.com/dennysguitars/lessonsindex1.html. Yeah, it is going to take me awhile.

Kris ... this page might help with the "Number System" and show you some of the advantages of it ... for steel guitar playin' ...

Stuff for Steel Students ...

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<font size=1> Aiello's House of Gauss</font>

<font size=1>
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield</font>

I'm with Jay. These elongated dissertions seem convoluted.

Denny,
What is the trick to print out some of your different pages including the C6/11 tuning pages?

I have tried landscape and regular and it gets chopped up. I am really enjoying the reading. Back to #3 time through...

I think I may need 5 more if that's ok!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Gary Boyett on 15 August 2005 at 05:52 PM.]</p></FONT>

Denny
Thanks for all the information. I'm having the same problem. Its a lot to read (and re-read)on the screen. Can you make it more printer friendly?

Denny, I'm with Jay. Some video and sound examples would be extremely helpful. Put me down for #2 on your advance order sheet.

Hi Denny,
Thanks for sharing the great information. Definitely a tremendous resource, that I'm getting A LOT out of!


I'll chime in here also to say that I too think a video would be a terrific thing! Emmmm, I'll go out on the limb here too and offer to help edit your video and author the DVD as well if you ever decide to give it a shot.

thx again for the great info!

-Larry W

Man, as much as I try the whole thing is far too confusing for me. Maybe it's the "math" correlation, in that "math" and I never, ever got along (barely survived algebra - I was a speech major). My eyes start rolling around having to bounce from words to charts to numbers to letters to arrows....

I wish there was something a bit more linear for those of us (and I know there are a LOT of us) who can follow things in a list, but get lost with innumerable branches.

To put it simply - if you don't already know music theory *and* whatever numbering system, you're dead in the water. I guess what I'm really saying is that there's no starting point for the unschooled ear player. At least I can't find it in all the "play a dim9 iii ===>Cm root move up three or down two and you get a 13th" stuff.

That's why I think the video would really help, Jim.
I do believe it is the missing piece for me.

Jay

One gets the impression that the subject is far less complex than the explanation thereof.

<SMALL>These elongated dissertions seem convoluted.</SMALL>

<SMALL>To put it simply - if you don't already know music theory *and* whatever numbering system, you're dead in the water. I guess what I'm really saying is that there's no starting point for the unschooled ear player.</SMALL>

<SMALL> One gets the impression that the subject is far less complex than the explanation thereof.</SMALL>

Sure it is ... open up any first year Music Theory text and you get something like:

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
C Major Scale = Ionian Mode = C D E F G A B C

D Dorian Mode = D E F G A B C D

E Phrygian Mode = E F G A B C D E

F Lydian Mode = F G A B C D E F

G Mixolydian Mode = G A B C D E F G

A Aeolian Mode = A B C D E F G A

B Locrian Mode = B C D E F G A B

</pre></font>

What Denny has done is explain how this applies to the steel guitar ... in particular the C6 tuning.

Denny does this for free & spends alot of time doing it ... simply to pass on information that he has acquired over the years.

He's not selling anything ... it's not Pay for View ... he's "sharing" this info ...

Denny has explained it the best way he knows how ... as have I (on my site) ...

Those who are interested in learning what Church Modes are and how they apply to playing the steel guitar ... can access these resources and study.

Denny has written, re-written, updated, etc. his site to make his explaination as clear as he can make it. I have done the same ...

Of course, like any advanced study ... there are some Prerequisites.

Basic knowledge of chordal theory and the Number System is needed to understand our explainations of what Modal Theory is and how it is used in music...

And yep ... these topics are on our sites also ...

Those who are not interested ... well, don't click on these links.

Those who think they can explain Modal theory in respect to the C6 steel guitar tuning better than it has already been done here ...

Open up a web page ... and have at it.


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<font size=1> Aiello's House of Gauss</font>

<font size=1>
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield</font>

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 18 August 2005 at 05:39 AM.]</p></FONT>

“Those who are not interested ... well, don't click on these links.

Those who think they can explain Modal theory in respect to the C6 steel guitar tuning better than it has already been done here ... Open up a web page ... and have at it.”


Wow Rick- I was really surprised to see your post. When I read through the posts I see gratitude for all the information. Also, people encouraging Denny to expand to a multi-media approach is positive and shows support (also a potential market) for all his efforts. That people profess their own limitations, express puzzlement or seek clarification is not surprising- in any area of endeavor-and should not be criticized (especially in educational forums). Its not clear where your coming from but the tone is disturbing. I don’t mean to offend- just sharing the impressions of a newbie who is eager to learn lap steel.

Chuck

I was simply addressing Mr. Altrichter and Mr. Sliff's comments ... hence the quotes.

<SMALL>That people profess their own limitations, express puzzlement or seek clarification is not surprising- in any area of endeavor-and should not be criticized (especially in educational forums).</SMALL>

While I'm at it ...

I wasn't criticizing anyone ...

I'm a big believer in the multiple source approach to learning anything new. In other words, you need to read and experience a number of people's approaches to explaining a problem before the light bulbs go off. I read Denny's stuff a while ago and got some things out of it and didn't get other things. Then I read another source who explained the same issue from another angle, more bulbs went off.

You need to approach learning from many different angles in order to master it.

THANK YOU for your valuable feedback.

-------

I have posted an image-only page and linked to it on the master Nav / Substitution chart-page to make it printable (I hope). (Some computers can't reconcile the layered scripts on the main-chart page). Read the instructions I posted on the image page if simply clicking on your browser's *print page* doesn't work.

You might save ink by printing in black and white with a 'quick-econo' setting (the image's .jpg format color skewing has caused some pink in the background that will use color ink as well as the b/w toner).

-------

I APPRECIATE hearing from Folks that have difficulty with numbers / theory etc. ...even "curt quips" that usually exemplify the frustrations of some Folks' inherent learning mechanics (I know that frustration well). Please continue to provide me feedback and suggestions. It would please me greatly if I could find and produce the means to satisfy as many peoples' learning mechanics as possible. Thank You for the suggestions for producing tacit / example / hands-on media formats. I truely would like to do such things but that priority is a bit down the road. It will probably come as a video'ed seminar here at the house/shop later this year.

Keep in mind that the material IS NOT Beginner material; It requires a BASIC knowlege of music theory. That quite simple and short basic music theory is provided on my lessons index page.

In the meantime consider this: I am nominally autistic; But that's good from some perspectives because autism requires allot of detail to assemble an accurate mental picture / concept. It has been no easy chore for me to learn MANY things in my lifetime. I "envy" Folks whose learning comes easy. Otherwise, ...desire, motivation and effort was / is key for Folks that find it a challenge to learn certain things. If learning numerical academics is too much of a challenge, ...NO PROBLEM, there are other means of learning ...such as those suggested in this disucssion chain; It just WON'T likely be by by music theory.

But take heart; I have been a professional licensed instructor for 35 years and taught many highly technical aerospace subjects ...requiring much training in the ways people learn (process info) and how to teach in that broad spectrum of individual learning mechanics. My material of this discussion chain, is chock-full of instructional methodology for a broad range of individual learning mechanics, ...and is regularly refined commensurate with feedback such as this very valuable discussion chain; Albeit some of my vernacular still needs further refinement due to my autism often not being able to recognize even obviously poor vernacular until it's pointed out. Any suggestions sent to me by private email can be addressed quicker.

Bottom line is that for the time being the material is as simple as I could make it so far ...with a decent ability to do so; And I get MANY emails from Folks reporting how easy and effective it is. But it does take nominal desire, motivation and effort to make use of IF a person's learning mechanics can process the info. And if it's still difficult for some folks (which is QUITE normal in any learning arena), ...then they might have a friend who does / can grasp the material, to provide real-time hands-on demonstrations of what's there. Again, ...and quite normally... there will be some folks with learning mechanics that can't process numerical academics ... and learning music theory REQUIRES learning numerical academics. In such cases those Folks would be better served by rote tacit learning (real-time / hands-on / demonstration) (reinforced by tablature if possible) ...learning songs and licks by rote memory. There is NOTHING wrong with learning songs and licks by tacit rote memory; MANY Folks learn to play that way and enjoy the music they learn ...which I would hope is a person's objective of learning music.

Now, for those that can learn by simple numbers and simple step-by-step method:

So folks don't have to back-track it being said before:

Basic & Intermediae music "theory" and numbers doesn't get much easier than this ...(IMHO).

For Those that can study / learn by numerical academics; APPLYING (as in nominal motivated effort) it to Steel doesn't get much easier than this (IMHO).

Several Folks have rightfully pointed out that studying from Others' published perspectives is also most valuable / effective.

Thank You,
Aloha,
DT~
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 19 August 2005 at 04:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

.
.
.

hahahahah Howard what Gauge rope is that?
hahahahahahaha

HA! The first time I saw that picture of Howard a couple years back, ...I was worried he'd gone off the deep end.

Now I know it's just a good sign that he is OK and all is well!

Aloha,
DT~

"And yep ... these topics are on our sites also ..."

Rick, I'll simply ask - WHERE?

I for one can't find it in all the other stuff.

And FWIW what the heck is a "Church Mode"? I've been playing on at least a semi pro basis for 40 years and never heard that term until this thread.

And I've played in church.



Denny meentions that it's all a piece o' cake "once a quite small amount of prerequisite music theory is reviewed." but never defines WHAT that "small amount" of theory is or offers it. Or if he does, it's BURIED.

I'd love to learn this stuff - but you huys lay out a bunch of engine parts with no instructions and half the tools.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 August 2005 at 08:14 PM.]</p></FONT>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>I'd love to learn this stuff - but you huys lay out a bunch of engine parts with no instructions and half the tools.

</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even with that kinda comment ... I will gladly show you where ...

My Site ... first essay:

Number System & Basic Theory


Dennys site ... from the post above:

basic music theory


As far as Church Modes:

Church Modes



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<font size=1> Aiello's House of Gauss</font>

<font size=1>
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield</font>