fender 400 string breakage

John Carpenter · Post by **John Carpenter** » 10 Jul 2007 10:38 am

I know there is a seperate board for this, but i haven't seen too much action there recently so i figured i'd pose this question here.

I recently purchased a fender 400 off of ebay just to mess around with.

I tried various tunings, and wanted to give a standard E9 emmons a shot. I strung it E to F#, leaving out the two lowest strings. My problem is, when i engage the A pedal (G# - A) the string breaks. I broke two strings and gave up. The guitar has the newer roller style bridge so i dont know if that is a factor.

Does anyone have a fix for this? everything was going so well until this happened. I was hoping to play it at a show on friday but, well, i'll go back to the MSA in the meantime i suppose.

Thanks

John

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 10 Jul 2007 10:56 am

John,
As well as I can remember, haha, a lot of us tuned to D-9 rather than E-9.
I should add,,,,that we usually used the E-9 gages for the D-9 tuning.
BB

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 10 Jul 2007 11:06 am

It's only a one fret raise, so perhaps your pedal travel is going too far. Check the pedal stop screw at the right end of the guitar. From front to back it should be cap screw number 5.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 10 Jul 2007 11:22 am

Is the scale length of a Fender 400 longer than the usual 24" ?
If so, this would account for the string breakage.

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 10 Jul 2007 11:58 am

The newer Fender 400 with the roller style bridge has a 23 inch scale length. A one fret raise should not be breaking strings. I believe the pedal stop needs to be set correctly.

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 10 Jul 2007 4:13 pm

Yes, John....
There is differences in the scale lenght of the different models.
Mine is a 1962, I purchased it new, it has a scale lenght of 23 inckes.My setup has the normal high G# and breaking strings is no problem.
I have a local friend here that has an older one with a longer scale. He was breaking the G# string a lot. We retuned his to D9th and that cured the problem.
I hope this helps...
Moon

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 10 Jul 2007 6:06 pm

If your model has the "hog Rings", you can make the ring for the G# string longer, as much so as you can
without letting the string winding hit the top of the bridge. This will allow for a slightly shorter
string length. I have found this helps.

I am lucky, as the artist I play with when I use my 400 tunes down a half step, so I am in an Eb9th.
However, using the longer ring did allow me to tune
all the way up to E9th, breaking a G# maybe every
other gig.

John Carpenter · Post by **John Carpenter** » 10 Jul 2007 6:43 pm

thanks everyone,

i have the long scale, i figure...24''

so i think D9 is my best bet. although, assuming the hog ring is the little wire "ring" that conects the tring to the bridge, i suppose i could lengthen it.

this is tricky, any other ideas? i'm using standard gauge E9 srings...does that make a different

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 10 Jul 2007 6:45 pm

John what string gauge is your G# string? It should be an .011
I believe your string should have at least 3 to 4 wraps around the tuning peg shaft.

Where is the G# string breaking?

John Carpenter · Post by **John Carpenter** » 10 Jul 2007 7:37 pm

its an .011. its breaking right at the bridge

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 10 Jul 2007 8:54 pm

Yes John, the "hog ring" is that little wire thing
attached to the puller. You have to make a new longer one out of wire about the same gauge. Be
careful getting the old one out, you could break off
a section of the puller from the hole outward.
You're right, it is tricky, but if you feel
confident in doing it, it does help lessen string
breakage.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Jul 2007 3:01 am

Go to a .010 guage for the high string.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 11 Jul 2007 3:56 am

I bought my 1958 Fender 1000 from Bobbye Seymore and it arrived tuned to D9th. I tried to tune up to E9th but the G# would break every time after just a couple of pedals. I changed it back to D9th and it works fine. I use a regular E9 set but substitute a .012 and rarely break a string. Just takes a little getting used to having your root E on the second fret.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 Jul 2007 4:51 am

John, all the breakage problems I've seen have been due to burrs or other issues with the bridge or nut. With a bar bridge I used increasigly finer abrasives and then lubed it with Tri Flow teflon lube. It eliminated the breakage tuned to E9. Still, some sort of mechanical advantage is better - either rolling shims as I have on one 1000 or the aftermarket roller bridge.

But even the roller bridges can have issues - most of the ones I've seen were not all that finely machined, and could really use the same progressive-abrasive treatment and lube. Once that's done you should be in pretty good shape; a 24.5" scale is still going to be tougher on strings than most guitars, so it might be a good plan to just change the offending string (usually the 3rd of a stock E9 setup) on a regular basis as preventative medicine.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 11 Jul 2007 9:02 pm

A short-scale 400 equipped with hog rings shouldn't be breaking .011" strings that often. Try George L's stainless strings and see if that doesn't help. It sounds like you're using a brand that may be a bit brittle.
PRR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 Jul 2007 9:18 pm

Paul, it's a long scale; 24.5". The short-scale models had the finger-bridge and no hog rings.

Paul Redmond · Post by **Paul Redmond** » 12 Jul 2007 8:47 pm

Try a George L's .010-1/2" or .010" on #3. On my BMI D-11, the third string key is in the 4th string position on the keyhead, the 4th is in the 5th position, and so on. That makes strings #1 thru #5 longer than they would be on a 10-string guitar, about the same length key-to-changer as the Fender long scale. The 3rd's used to break on me all the time if I used .011's, so Roy Thomas suggested using a .010" or .010-1/2". Problem solved with very little extra pull involved.
PRR

Bill A. Moore · Post by **Bill A. Moore** » 13 Jul 2007 4:42 pm

I am hardly one to give advice on this subject, but I have a short scale Fender 400, that I am attempting to learn to play. I bought a course from Frenchy in Belen, and some strings, and he suggested using the lower 8 of the 10 string E9 tuning. I am slowly progressing (built a speaker cabinet, bought an amp.), and am trying to get the thing tuned. It has really been an experience, as I have played drums for years, and always did the sound in our groups, when tuners fist became affordable,I bought one for the band I was working with at the time. I was amazed that the steel guitar could be tuned so many ways, and every tuning is correct. I'm getting away from the point, that I tuned the original strings to the lower 8 tuning, and then tuned the pedals, I had no problem with breakage. I then replaced the strings, and tuned them ( I slowly brought the 1st string in tune) and I am amazed that I did not break a string. I do have a problem with the A pedal, the small string will not return to tune unless I shake the cables under the guitar. I am going to try to get some lube into the changers this weekend, I hope that is all it needs. Is the correct tuning for an 8 string, the upper or lower 8 of the 10 string E9 tuning? Thanks for all the information I have already recieved from reading posts from this forum.

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 13 Jul 2007 8:01 pm

Hi Bill...
First, be sure that the cables have slack. when you look under my Fender 400, the cables droop
down about 1/2 inch. If the turnbuckels are a little too tight, you will have that kind of trouble.
For a long time, My tuning on the 8 string is...
I use one of the chromatic strings, the F#.My tuning from top to bottom =
#1 - F#, #2 - G#, #3 - E, #4 - B, #5 - G#, #6 - E
#7 C# , and #8 B.
As you can see, I have omitted the F# in the middle of the tuning.
You can do really good with the bottom 8 strings of the E9th tuning. Also, if you switch to a 10 string
You would simply add the 2 chromatic strings, the 1st and 2nd, F# and D#..
Click on my web site below to see a photo of my 1962 er 400...
Good luck,
Moon

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Jul 2007 8:27 pm

Bill, ANY tuning is correct. Some use the lower-8 of E9, some the upper-8; some Sneaky Pete's B6; some C6; Some Fender's A6; some use either of the E9's tuned down to D (less desired on a short-scale like yours).

As far as returning notes, first check to ensure the turnbuckles are not overtightened; that's the most common issue. Then make sure the small pulleys all clear each other - if they bind up with your setup you will need to get some cable and remake the assemblies so the small pulleys do not touch. Email me if you need advice on this - I've done it several times and it's not that tough with the right tools. You may also need to (or want to) do some spring changes to loosen up the feel and/or tighten up a pedal or two. Very easy to do.

When you lube the guitar you MUST clean out all the old gunked-up oil first orr you'll get nowhere. This is really critical with the large pulley and the changer(s) on Fenders. Get a plastic bottle of lighter fluid (naphtha) and spray it fairly hard into all the moving parts to flush things out- make sure to do it outside or over a towel you can wash right away (a soaked towel can burst into flames). It will NOT harm the finish on the guitar, but will loosen stickers (and is great for removing them!)

Once it has dried out, I recommend using Tri Flow teflon lube - it goes on liquid and leaves a thing, dry teflon film that picks up NO dirt. After years of oilss on Stringbenders and other guitar mechanics, I only use this stuff; apply it every few months and that's it. There's nothing I've found with as smooth and "free" a feel.

Hope that helps -

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 14 Jul 2007 10:47 am

Tim Whitlock wrote:I bought my 1958 Fender 1000 from Bobbye Seymore and it arrived tuned to D9th. I tried to tune up to E9th but the G# would break every time after just a couple of pedals. I changed it back to D9th and it works fine. I use a regular E9 set but substitute a .012 and rarely break a string. Just takes a little getting used to having your root E on the second fret.

Tim.... I played D-9 for years, have since gone back to E-9. For you fellows that are leary of going into John Hughey land, put a D-9 on and go for it. You will get used to playing way up there. You also have a great G major instead of A on the bottom, strings 6,8,10, A and B pedals down.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2007 8:25 am

FWIW here's my 1000 copedent - front neck is an open SS; the back is Sneaky Pete's B6 before he added knee levers in the early 70's. It's really a sort of early universal, similar to C6 but with some E9 changes, especially the "A & B" pedals. Foor most stuff, pedals 1, 2, 7 and 8 are my most-used; pedal 3 is useful for "open" 7ths, 5, 6 & 7 are pretty much C6-type changes (although I use #7 a lot as a sort of Tele-Stringbender sound). Pedal 4 is sort of the lost child - it gets you some minors when you jump over with the left foot, although it really seems redundant to pedal 8. If anyone has another idea why it's there, let me know!

I like it much better than any type of E9, as it has much richer mids and a huge low end - after playing it a while E9 seems REALLY high-pitched to me.

[tab]
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E
D
B
G#
E
E
B
E
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
D# +E -D
B -Bb +C# -Bb
G# +A
F# +G# -F
D# +E -D
B +C#
G# +A
F# +G#
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
[/tab]

admin · Post by **b0b** » 15 Jul 2007 10:28 am

Jim Sliff wrote:FWIW here's my 1000 copedent ... 5, 6 & 7 are pretty much C6-type changes ...
[tab] P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
D# +E -D
B -Bb +C#
G# +A
F# +G# -F
D# +E -D
B +C#
G# +A
F# +G#
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
[/tab]

If you want to really get the C6th changes on those pedals, consider the following:

add 8th string lower to F on P5
add 8th string lower to E on P6 - most important!
change 1st string raise to E on P6 (instead of lower)
add 3rd string raise to A# on P7

Without those 8th string notes, you don't have the bottom note of the chords created by those pedals.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Jul 2007 11:19 am

Thanks b0b - I'll play around with those lower-string changes. I hate to lose the 1st string lower on pedal 6 though (hmmm - I might move it to replace #4, which still seems redundant with pedal 8's changes) - Pete used that on some of his more "Western" riffs (and it has a totally different, "swingier" sound when used in a sort of I-IV-V progression - I couldn't tell you what chords you actually get, I just know what it sounds like), plus without it you lose the diminished chord combination with pedal 5.

PS - fixed the obvious typo on the pedal 5 change to "-F", and the misssing 2nd string change (the one most critical to me!!) on pedal 8. Obviously, I'm not used to typing out copedents.

One more question, b0b - you suggestions call for 3 changes on pedal number 6. Do you recommend the 5th string lower be retained?

Post by **b0b** » 15 Jul 2007 11:43 am

Jim Sliff wrote: One more question, b0b - you suggestions call for 3 changes on pedal number 6. Do you recommend the 5th string lower be retained?

If this were a more standard "universal" tuning, the 8th string would be tuned to E. That note is very important in C6th playing (it's the 9th string F on C6th). So yes, if you are intent on keeping your low F#, I would recommend having 3 changes on P6. It will form a full E9th chord.

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