The Steel Guitar Forum

WOW! is all I can say after heating it up and running it hard for SEVERAL hours since I got it last night.

Mostly on Tele, but some steel too.

Now.

Myths seem to surround a few things.

One is the "Solid statism". According to all the material I can find Here in the Best HRD Site I've Found, the only thins that are are the rectifier, the reverb, and the effects loop.

Another question is the Speaker, and the need to "change it out". My Nomenclature says Fender Emminence. Is that a "Celestion" of a type?

The speaker seemed to change character after a couple hours of hard playing.

OK.

Tubes: The GT's I have have white writing on them, and no other IDs that I can see.

I was told at a "guitar show" today that I will get "tone to die for" if I get a hundred bucks or more worth of KT66s. Is that true? Also to get a different kind of AX7 set.

I can't say I've EVER heard as accurate of a response on my xtLive/solid state combo of ALL the dynamics, including fret slap, and the highs seem to cut well even when the limit is pushed in the "drive department". I'm used to DDT Peavey compression just "squishing the whole signal".

I ran my Nvl 112 out of the "pre-out" and it too had a whole different character. Not as muddy, and no appreciable loss in the HRD.

Can't wait to mike it as part of a double amp setup for a big venue. Got a couple good ones coming up. Tele only outdoors next weekend.

Also if somebody can be so kind, ONE MORE TIME please explain the "Watts/Loudness" thing that makes this amp so much hotter than my 80 "watt" NVL112 in spots. Also how the 22 watt Super Reverbs, or whatever they are called do so well on stage next to a 210 "watt" Nvl 400s. So do those "Dr Z 15 Watters and some Vox 30 watters..

Anyhow, I love the amp, the sound, the smell, and everything about this HRD so far.

Any tips, advice, tricks, or mod suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Even constructive crite.. critis.. critte.. Well you know. The thing we all hate..

(BTW, I saw a half dozen Danny Shields (I miss him) open wound strat PUS today at the guitar "show" for 50$ and a couple of '90 Barden Bridge PUS for 125$ but I like my stacked DDs..)

Thanks.



EJL

(Plugging in again til midnight..)

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Eric West wrote:
Also if somebody can be so kind, ONE MORE TIME please explain the "Watts/Loudness" thing that makes this amp so much hotter than my 80 "watt" NVL112 in spots. Also how the 22 watt Super Reverbs, or whatever they are called do so well on stage next to a 210 "watt" Nvl 400s. So do those "Dr Z 15 Watters and some Vox 30 watters..

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I'll help with what I can, though my total understanding may, in itself, be less than perfect. Working almost 10 years for Line 6, I went through a lot of "everything you know is wrong" moments concerning some of the common legends about tube amplification and ideas about "tone" in general.

A big part of it is the nature of the power/volume equation, decibels being a logarithmic scale. An increase of 10dB is doubling of volume, however, doubling the power, all other things being equal, only gives you a 2-3dB increase in volume. From this you can see that an increase from the 18 watts of a blackface Deluxe to the 88 watts of a Twin is only a 4-6 dB increase in volume (assuming that the Twin is driving a single 12: doubling speaker surface area also gives a 2-3 dB increase, so a real-life Deluxe to Twin comparison would be a 6-9 dB difference). You can also see that you need to increase the power almost 10 fold to get twice as much volume.

Another factor is the nature of how tube amplifiers deal with transients as opposed to how solid state amplifiers do. Tube amplifiers can deliver a momentary amplification of several times their rated wattage when dealing with transients (attack). Often it's the volume of note attack that gives the sense of "loud" A solid state amplifier cannot deliver that quick burst, so never is quite as punchy, even thouggh the RMS rating of the amp might be much higher.

There are also some synergistic things going on between a speaker and output transformer in a tube amp that seem to help in making the tube amps sound livelier.

Hope that doesn't muddy the waters any.

other folk-lore department;

On a similar site for fender guitars/amps/etc., it was explained to me (when asking a similar question) that watts rating on a tube amp was the value that the amp would put out while remaining "clean". Even though the amp could be played louder distorted...could it be?

Tom

Tom,

RMS power ratings should be stated as being at x% total harmonic distortion, or they're fairly meaningless.

Yes, a 100 watt tube amp can get louder than a 100 watt solid state amp. It has largely to do with the fact that a solid state amp has voltage rails (that's the maximum amount that the voltage can swing from plus to minus) that are hard. when you hit those rails, a waveform gets cut off sharply - clipped square, which can make for a less than pleasant sound. A tube amp has 'soft' rails, and can stretch them a little making the waveform peaks gradually flatten ("soft clipping") rather than get cut off at the knees. When you're in the linear range of amplification (where output=x*y), there's not a whole lot different going on between the two types of amps. It's when stuff starts to go non-linear (when output= x*y-z) that the interesting tonal stuff really starts to happen.

Well George, I've always liked the modelling of "tube amps" on my Podxts, because I always had a Nvl400/112 to with enough headroom for convincing "tube emulations".

Indeed, I use my xtLive before the HRD. "No amp" model, in other words I am just using the compressor, delay, reverb, and whatever other effects I want out of it and the Volume Pedal. ( which the only glitch was I had to learn how to recalibrate it from time to time..)

There's just something about this HRD that really kicks butt, and like the classic "PSG through a Twin" distortion, it's nothing I can really put into words.

I'm still in search of more info on the "Vs" question, the tube/speaker upgrades for the HRD, needs for such, and general info.

No information will be wasted, and I would even welcome Reece's or Natalie's comments.

Thanks as it keeps coming.



EJL

Put a tube screamer in that equation with your tele, and get out the way. JP

http://studentweb.eku.edu/justin_holton/faq.html
This is a web site that I've found to be of use in doing some tweaks to my Deville. It's the "Unofficial HR Deluxe and Deville Users Guide". ---Be sure to look through the menu guide on the left side of the page.

Al. Yup, that's the one I found.

I got it over the Supersonic becaus I have preamps up the butt including my Hilton if I use it, and the Supersonic had 8 AX7 tubes alone, and seemed to be geared more toward overdriven sounds. Not that the HRD doesnt' have a load of OD capability.

I did try the "Tube Preamp" PodxtLive, and it does seem to add, but for now I'm going to try to get the best out of this amp without it, and then we'll see.

I talked to another friend of mine, Rick Gaskill yesterday, and he had gotten a HRD too, over his Deville, and his Peavey vintage tweed whatever it was. Both too heavy, too many tubes and it was unbelievable that he said they had to be too loud before they "opened up". That was surprising coming from Rick, because he's a loud player..

For now, I'm going to keep playing it, and keep reading this Unofficial Users Site.

45 lbs isn't too heavy either.

Thanks for the info, and any more as it comes.



EJL

Hmmm, after reading this, I can't wait to get my HRD. Should be here bout Thursday or Friday.

Eric, you say your tying your HRD and your steel amp together? Mind giving me your settings on your HRD when combining it with your steel amp? I have a Nashville 112 that I'd like to hook up with my HRD.
That would make a good steel/Tele combination at a gig. Thanks


Terry

Well Terry, I tried just running it out of my Pod, but the Nvl112 was too flat.

Everything at 0 and no shift or reverb.

I plugged in to the Pre-Amp out of the HRD and it was perfect.

Let's see. Looking at it right now, I'm in the clean channel, basically bass mid and treble are all at 9, no bright button, no presence, no reverb. Volume about 2. Being a linear taper it reaches full volume about 3 they say.

I read on the nomenclature where the "tone" settings are transmitted to the amp you plug into the Pre-Amp Out.

Hope that helps.

More as I try it.
Gig level, I'm sure I'll have to adjust some things.

My PodxtLive is using "No Amp Model" and just the /reverb/comp/distortion/delay/chorus etc. from it.



EJL

I played my MSA Legend pedal steel through my HRD for a few weeks. At low volume levels the tone is fat, clear and warm sounding, kinda like a vintage Sho-Bud tone. I ran the treble all the way off, a good indication that the HRD is not voice well for pedal steel. The reverb is useless IMHO (not a tube circuit like the Deluxe Reverb) so I use a Boss RV-5 with mine. This is my favorite regular guitar amp and I even use the overdrive channel a lot and sometimes a Keeley 4 knob compressor. I don't doubt that the mods would help a lot, it does sometimes sound a little too boomy on the bass but I have been able to set the controls to manage that. getting this amp has made guitar playing fun again, it just sounds that good. I'll put it on my list to record a pedal steel song with it so you all can hear what it sounds like.

Greg

Thanks Eric, I'll give those settings a try.

Terry

I have always felt that the speaker/amp relationship can play a big part in the apparent volume of an amp.
A 100 watt amp may have a speaker rated for a high wattage. They seem to have stiffer cones, heavier windings etc. and take more omph to get them moving than the low wattage speaker in a 30 watt amp.

Greg...I'll look forward to the recording. You have a great and useful web-site.

Tom

...please explain the "Watts/Loudness" thing that makes this amp so much hotter than my 80 "watt" NVL112 in spots. Also how the 22 watt Super Reverbs, or whatever they are called do so well on stage next to a 210 "watt" Nvl 400s. So do those "Dr Z 15 Watters and some Vox 30 watters..

A 40-watt tube amp, driven well into overdrive, is probably putting out almost twice that on peaks, so it's equaling a 112 on the high and high-midrange stuff. Using straight guitar is a relatively poor way to judge amp power, since the frequencies played are mostly high and it takes, in reality, very little power for high frequencies. The lower-freq clean stuff we play on pedal steel takes far more wattage to reproduce. Those low-watt Dr.Z's and Vox AC-15's and AC-30's and the like sound great with straight guitar, but they suck (and I mean big time) when you try to play some cool, clean, C6th stuff through them. What you think you hear as "real balls" in these amps is nothing but lots of pleasing harmonic distortion. The clean, sold bass response just isn't there. (This is also why low-wattage bass amps are now just about extinct.) Straight guitars and pedal steels are (sonically) entirely different animals, and what works great on one usually falls flat on it's face when used with the other. Of course, players like Mooney, who use nothing but highs (like a straight guitar player) are an exception.

As far as comparing this amp to that amp, you have to be able to separate tones, sounds, and what actually comprises them, to really be able to compare and judge amps and amp power using your ears.

As I'm still reading, Donny, I am of the opinion that indeed PSGs need more "headroom'. I've been told to expect to go through tubes if and when I use it for PSG.

I think there's a lot to the fact that psg is a steady signal with less dynamic variation being harder on tubes, but I don't know for sure. I'll be finding out after I go through a few sets.

I might add a couple things.

C6 lowness was played very well on early tube amps. Higher wattage Twins especially. In the 85 watt range and less. I don't have room in my music room for all the recordings using Twins, VibroSonics, and other tube psg amps.

Distortion of low wattage amps is one of the signatures of early pedal steels. Not just E9. From the 50s 60s and half of the seventies, except maybe for Magnatones, Polytones, and prototypes.

I think if we get to checking, we'd find that still the bulk of meaningful Pedal Steel Recordings were done with tubes. From Bud to Buddy, from Alvino to Lloyd.

I had a Gretch Nashville SS in 78 that sounded good. Almost like the Session 400s and LTDs on Brad Sarno's GREAT S400/LTD Info Page.

Also.

One of the reasons I got back into 6 string after 40 years of swinging it around the arm of my couch was that I got tired to death of the E9's lack of low strings. Nothing below B. That's where a lot of meaningful instrumental playing is done. I've comped my brains out on E9, so I know. I'm always looking for new ways to play things in the lowest range.

Now I play half my guitar stuff below that. All the way down to D.

There's an unmistakable disparity in volume in different "watt ratings". Not just "undistorted signal".

Still then, there are Hybrid Amps like the Music Man I used to have. It said 65 watts, with 2 EL34s and the reverb sucked, but after I ran a hot signal into it from my Session500, it almost matched the volume. Clean too, (till the bias resistor melted...)

I'll try it with my Marrs later in the week and see how it does. C6 too.



EJL

Most modern transistor steel amps have compression which limits the amp's gain to avoid clipping and the resulting distortion. Therefore they are always putting out, for example, a sine wave tone for a given note (ok, there are harmonics). In any case they avoid clipping the power supply rails.

A tube amp, if you allow it to distort, can produce a square wave for the same given tone. The RMS power in the clipped square wave is a lot higher than the RMS power in the sinusoidal wave. It is very close to 1.414 x 1.414 or approx 2 times the power. It may be more distorted than the tranistor amp, but it does have a lot more RMS power.

Greg

Well, first real gig with PSG and Tele.

I still don't know why I didn't get one of these puppies when they first came out.

Playing at a casino bar, that got out of hand volume wise.

I found possibly the main secret of the HRD for psg:

Pre-Amp Out.

I outed it into my Nvl112, in the Post EQ In.

Plus 80 SS watts. More than enough for C6 in a "club".

Maybe I just wasn't listening for it, but I didn't hear much "breakup".

The whole ticket would assumably be outing it into my Nvl400.

Got it nice and warm anyhow, and it's sounding better and better.

Another hard to beat combo might be into a Session 500 like my old MkIV with the variable crossover, though I don't know how it would exactly work, and it's heavier than I can haul around anymore..



EJL

Eric, great amp you got there. I bought one when they first came out in the mid to late 90's or so. I used it on gigs for both Tele and Steel with a Fender extension cab.( 1 x 12)

I changed to a Hot Rod Deville a few years back primarily for preamp front end clarity. Big chords ( Tele front pickup ) on the Deville are much cleaner than on the Deluxe. going from 40 watts 1x12 to 60 watts 2x12 or 4x10's is quite the upgrade !

If you happen to pass by a Peavey Classic 50/ 4x10 or a HRDeville 4x10..don't pass them by....take them for a ride..preferably HOME...