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Topic: Play by wire |
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 2:27 pm |
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| I was think, always dangerous for me. The steel guitar as presently built is a mechanical device. I was thinking and maybe someone has done this. Why doesn't some one redisign the instrument to move with servos and such! |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 2:58 pm
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Ok Robert, lets carry this into the world of electronics. Build the PSG of the 21st Century with Automatic tuning capasity. In other words install an electronic tuner set to the Root of the E9th Tuning or the C6th, with the capasity of keeping the isterment always tuned to the Root. I would not be suprised if some one logs in and informs us that it is already out there, But can you afford it.
Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich 120
Nashvill 400 |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 4:10 pm Play By Wire
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| I don't propose that it be entirely ecectronic, like a keyboard just the mechanics be mobed by servo. I don't know about afforability. I saw a Rains D-10 the other night at just about 6K. I really cant aford that for a hobby. |
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Brendan Mitchell
From:
Melbourne Australia
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 4:18 pm
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| If you did that you couldn't tap your foot on the pedals . |
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A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 4:28 pm
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Sure you could tape the pedals, it would feel different.
I love new idea's
I think the big problem Robert is the limited space underneath, correct me if I am wrong, but you would need a beefy servo, and it has to be geared right. If you stuff 10 servos in it that would get pretty tight not to say it isn't possible.
I think the nail in the coffin is the fear that the servos won't react as quick as my foot or knee can when compaired to a regualer PSG. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 5:01 pm Play By Wire
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| Space might be a problem, but you wouldn/t have all of that hardware under the guitar. I'm not an electronics engineer. I wish i was. i would try it say on a knee lever just for a test |
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Wayne D. Clark
From:
Montello Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 6:02 pm
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Robert;, Are we talking here of havin Servos operating the Pedals and Levers? If that is so how do you activate the Sarvos? If by feet or knees we already do that and A.J. has a valid question, what is quicker than the foot of knee, when you have become proficient on the isterment. also how will the Sarvo know whether you are wanting a half step or full step? Of course Edison did not profect the Light bulb his first try.
Questions are asked to stimulate thought to arrive at possible answers.
Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich 120
Nashville 400 |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 6:42 pm Servos Speed and Travel
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| I don't know about the speed question. However, the question of 1/2 setps could be handled with mechanical limit switches or a more shospicated controller reading a preset feed back voltage. I don't mind the questions. I was just stimulating thoughts to. I won't be able to answer many however. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 7:16 pm
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| Why don't they make a computer pedal steel so that it doesn't take any talent to play it? Something where you can just push a button. |
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A. J. Schobert
From:
Cincinnati, Ohio,
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 7:27 pm
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I think the reaction time would be a big down side, truthfully alot of the hardware under the guitar would still be there. I am trying to picture this I guess you would loose bellcranks right? the changer and pull rods would pretty much stay the same.
It would have to have electric power to it.
It may work cause they do make small servo's but I don't know if they have the torque to throw a changer finger, that would be the deciding factor |
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Steve Hamill
From:
California, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2007 7:57 pm Transperformance guitar
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This 6 string guitar is designed to change tunings on the fly.
http://transperformance.com/perform/index2.htm
Sort of what your talking about with the servos and
computerized brain. Changing string pitch up or down would seem to be doable. Perfect for a lap steel! |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 7:24 am Computer no talent needed
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| Hey your right about making it a computer tha ttalent isnt needed. However, don't think tinkering with cables and pull rods is oing to chamge the necessary talent. yOu will still need the human ear and i beg to pardon, Music to me is palyed not necessarily by notes, but by freeling. For example the two version of the Credance Clearwarter song one by them the other by Ike and Tina.Music to me isn't necessary a grouping of notes but a flow that is set by the emotions of the singer. Hey I don't want to get sappy or wax philsophy. The playe wold still have control of the movements. I am not suggestiong an electronic synthesier. Thats already been done |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 8:16 am Re: Play by wire
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| Robert Harper wrote: |
| Why doesn't some one redisign the instrument to move with servos and such! |
It's a problem of the 6 "toos"...too expensive, too complicated, too prone to failure, too small a market, too hard to service, and too prone to being obsolete.
Doable? Yes. Practical? Not by a long shot! |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 8:47 am Obsolete
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| I agree with all of these except obsolete. The design thats being used now has been arround since the 60s at least. Why would something new be obsolete. Don't answer> I'm at work and I'm spending way too much time on this thanks everyone. It could be done probably cheaper than every one thinks. Hard ware is now cheap. Betch couls pick up servos at military surplus HMM |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 9:49 am
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| Standardization (and to the same extent, automation)is accomplished with the sacrifice of variability (ask Dr. Deming). I'll take my variability, thank you... |
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Ron !
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 10:23 am
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I agree with Donny here.
First,servo's are not fast enough.Speed picking can't be done when servo's are used.
Second....there is not enough room under a steel guitar to do all this.
Third,the weight will increase and make your steel guitar weigh a ton.
Fourth,builders will be having major problems adjusting the steel to the players wishes and needs and this will increase costs of the steel.
It's a good plan though,but I think that players maybe served more with a steel guitar that has a rod/cable conversion underneath.
Just my 2-cents.
Ron |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 5:29 pm
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Why? |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 5:45 pm Why
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| Because it is an invitation for change. It hasn't changed for forty years. What if the older generation had said why? My first steel was a 8string (Multi-Chord) raise only I did not no anything about a steel. The guy who sold it to me could play the darn thing just great, but it was behind the times. My dad repaired TV for 40 years. I ask him one time how he was able to repair TVs without a diagram he said" TVs haven't changed in 40 years. Look out there now. No TVs to repair. I'm just exploring possibilities. I will tell yous guys though. If I have thought of it, someone with more talent, more inginuty, acess to money or has the money and the time has thought of it. could it be the reason you don't see steel in country music anymore is the resistance to change? Resisting change will obosolete a person pretty quickly. My dad and his brother are prime examples. His brother didn't change to the new electronic switching when AT&T changed. He was one of the first union members to go look for a job. Unfortunately the world had changed, but not him |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 9:26 am Re: Obsolete
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| Robert Harper wrote: |
| I agree with all of these except obsolete...Why would something new be obsolete. |
Simple, electronic technology moves very fast. Electronic parts can become obsolete (discontinued, and therefore unavailable) in only a few years. Witness Peavey's discontinuing several amps they designed back in the '90s because the integrated circuits were no longer manufactured. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 10:56 am Obsolete
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| Yes, everything I have ever worked on is obsolete, helicopters, computers, telephone systems and I think I'm close |
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Tom Higgins
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 2:12 pm
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| Respectfully,the pedal steel needs to be reinvented like the grand piano does.We could spend every moment of our lives and still never come close to mastering either of these instruments.At a time when so much "music" is being made by software,I`m happy to be playing ,poorly albeit,an instrument that can`t play itself.If the psg has fallen out of favor,which I doubt,blame the players.It`s good to fix what`s "broke",it`s also easier to think about making the psg less of a challenge than it is to put in the practice hours. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 4:20 pm
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Your argument seems to be that if it's not a new approach, it's obsolete and needs to be "fixed". I don't even begin to see the relation between telephone switching and the act of humans creating music.
My problem is that I like as direct contact between my hands, feet, or whatever I use to create, and the sound created. Any mechanical linkage at all creates some separation, and I prefer steels that feel like my hands and feet are strongly connected to the strings. The reason I tolerate even this amount of separation is that it's necessary to be able to get some kind of mechanical string bending. But a servo system adds an additional layer of separation, and has a mind of its own. I spent 15 years intensively studying and working with automatic control systems, they are not a panacea for everything. Just what is the benefit as far as making music? Why should not a musician mechanically control the notes that they play?
As far as PSGs not changing for 40 years, I totally disagree. The mechanics on modern steels are light years ahead of most 40-50 year old designs. But even with that - many of the older guitars like Sho Buds and Emmons P/Ps are still the standard by which others are measured.
To me - unless I understand the benefit of extra layers of electromechanical complexity very clearly, to me it's just useless "GEE WHIZ" technology. Naturally, YMMV.  |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 4:38 pm
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I agree, Tom. We do have a lot of, uhh, complaints about our gear, don't we? One that always perplexed me is why players will change strings every month or two (at a cost of about $10 per neck) without complaint, but the same players will gripe when their $20 bar lasts them only a couple of years? They will also shop around for months to save a few hundred on a particular steel or amp, and then spend three times that savings on some gizmo to make it sound better? Also, I wasn't the first one here to notice that players who are the least accomplished (in playing ability), seem to do the most whining and worrying about their "tone"? We will pick apart and beg for tab on every "trick" ride, and add every pedal change that can be imagined, only to screw up every time we play "Mansion On The Hill".
Yes, we are a strange breed, aren't we?  |
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Robert Leaman
From:
Murphy, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 7:02 pm
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Well, I spent nearly 40 years with automated closed loop servo controls and I am ready to wager there isn't a soul living that can physically lift a servo equiped steel guitar unless the power supply is a separate unit. Yes, there are miniature servos but nearly all closed loop systems need a feedback sensor which may even be an integral part of the servo.
Next thing, let's have "servo" defined objectively for the benefit of the all, including me. Step up and give us a definition. There are many attempts to modify and "improve" musical instruments that have proved their worth through time. Some instruments have stood the test of time that spans more than hundreds of years. Look at how many of these modified instruments have replaced the traditional.
Good design dictates that a design needs to be "tweaked" and touched to bring a design closer and closer to what can be said to be nearly perfect.
However, there are always those who think that its best to throw out the bath water with the baby and draw a new bath without a baby.
Servos will not replace human touch even if they are controlled by a human. Years ago, player pianos, a type of servo although open loop, were popular. Remember that player rolls were produced by pianists who played on a special piano that punched paper rolls as the artist played. The paper roll duplicated the artist's performance and was one of the very first recording mediums. However, it never replaced a decent pianist. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 9:43 pm
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Why were fly by wire systems developed for airplanes?
Because humans could not control the complexity and the physical power required to control the physical systems needed to fly airplanes. There's no pressing need to do this sort of system for pedal steels.
In the future, given a new generation of servo motors and processors that haven't been developed, it could very well be that a pedal steel designer could use some 'off the shelf' technology to use new technology. But the pedal steel application isn't going to drive the technology.
_________________
www.tyack.com
Capetown girls sing this wrong: "da doo, da doo" |
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