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Ringing 4th String
Posted: 15 May 2007 7:52 pm
by Lee Baucum
On both the old Emmons Push/Pull that I used to play and on the Mullen that I now play, I get a very distracting high-pitched ringing on the 4th string (E9 tuning). It is most apparent from the 7th through the 12th frets.
I'm not talking about the "sitar" sound you get when there is a groove worn on top of the changer finger. This is more of a harmonic over-tone. None of the other unwound strings produce this over-tone. The strings are new. I tried moving the roller nut to a different position. I put the drop of oil on both sides of the roller. I have tried putting a cloth across all the strings, behind my left hand and on top of the strings behind the roller nut, to cut out the vibrations behind the bar. The ringing is still there and just on that E string. I've even tried picking the string in different places, with no change.
I remember this coming up several times before, on the "old Forum", but haven't seen it discussed lately.
Anybody else have this problem?
Lee, from South Texas
Posted: 15 May 2007 8:46 pm
by Bobby Boggs
Lee, have you tried playing the string with a different finger? Could be the angle your pick strikes the string? Just a thought......bb
Posted: 15 May 2007 9:15 pm
by richard burton
I've noticed this phenonemum on several steels, the decay of the note is the culprit, in my opinion.
Try putting a drop of oil where the string goes over the changer finger.
This will damp the string slightly, and the decaying note will die sooner.
If it dulls the string too much, keep wiping a smear of oil off until you reach a happy medium.
I use a more drastic method on my steels, a plastic strip between the string/changer finger interface.
Works for me
Posted: 15 May 2007 11:21 pm
by Jonathan Shacklock
Lee, experiment with where you strike the string. I find that picking exactly over the 24th fret reduces this annoying overtone considerably (or at least the 'zing' decays much more quickly so is less noticable).
I've also found that Jagwire strings and a BJS bar help a little - although I think this may be more to do with fattening up the fundamental tone of the note by comparrison to the 'zing'. Might be worth trying a different make of picks for the same reason.
I'm fairly sure that the radius of the finger is the culprit (although I've swapped the fingers around on my changer and it made no difference). The slightest flattening due to polishing can cause it and I think there's almost nothing you can do to rescue that finger.
Once your ear focusses in on this noise it is extremely irritating, don't let it become an obsession (bitter experience talking). Concentrate on the fundamental again and you will be a happier man!
Posted: 16 May 2007 4:41 am
by Lee Baucum
I'm already using Jagwire strings and a BJS bar. It does the same with other brands of strings and other bars. And, as I said before, this was happening with my Emmons, also.
The Mullen has anodized fingers and there is absolutely no sign of wear or grooves.
When I get home this evening, I'll try tuning the second string up to an E and see if the same thing happens.
Off to work!
Lee
Posted: 16 May 2007 7:17 am
by Earnest Bovine
Does it sound better if you push the string sideways a little on the changer finger?
ringing
Posted: 16 May 2007 1:12 pm
by Billy Carr
Try changing string gauges. One of the brands I used to carry in my steel shop had this problem on most of the S-10D's. I usually would replace a .014 with a .015 and that worked everytime except on one guitar.
4th string
Posted: 16 May 2007 1:54 pm
by Tommy Young
Lee I've found that when installing strings on guitars that if i put a lot of extra string on the smaller strings that i don't have this problem any longer and get the string in sort of a angle after it is installed then no more buzz as i call it and when u are holding the bar put your fingers spread out so as to stop the behind vibrations that causes a great deal of this also just a few things i do and tell plp to do here TOMMY
Posted: 16 May 2007 6:13 pm
by Lee Baucum
So, I gather by some of the replies that this has happened to others.
I tried tuning both the 1st and 2nd strings to the same E, to see if they would produce the ringing tone and they didn't.
I then tried tuning the 4th string down one-half step. That reduced the ringing a bit, but not completely. So, I just took off the string, which has been on the guitar about a week, and replaced it. Instead of putting on another Jagwire .014, I replaced it with a D'Addario .015 that I had in my stash of strings. That helped quite a bit. I don't know if it's the different size, or just the fact that it was new.
I noticed that the Jagwire .014 that I took off has a series of tiny marks about every quarter of an inch. When I run my fingers along the string, I can feel the marks. I wonder if that has anything to do with the strange harmonics. I guess it's possible that even Jagwire puts out a defective string.
Something else that helped was that I turned the gain completely down on my Hilton Digital Sustain unit.
By the way, here is a link to an old discussion about this problem.
Click Here
Lee
Posted: 16 May 2007 7:17 pm
by Dick Wood
This last week I played a 4 nighter and noticed he exact same thing Lee described. I changed strings and it's gone so it appears to be a problem with the string.
Posted: 16 May 2007 7:22 pm
by Darvin Willhoite
I got a bad string in a batch of bulk strings that did the same thing a week or two ago. I changed the string to another one out of the same batch and it sounds fine.
Posted: 18 May 2007 6:39 am
by jolynyk
Lee, whenever I hear ringing in our house, I just answer it, & the ringing usually stops.. works every time..
On the serious side, how do you hear ringing on a bandstand with drums, bass etc?? I sure can't, unless you're talking of a quiet bedroom scenario..
Posted: 18 May 2007 6:51 am
by Willis Vanderberg
I have this problem from time to time with the 3rd string. After a lot of experimenting I stick a piece of cotton in my left ear and the problem goes away.
Too many hours with big old round aircraft engines and too many big gun shots I guess.
I also notice when I close off one ear the note tends to sounds sharp or flat compared to both ears open.
I think it is all part of the golden years. Thank the Lord for the Petersen tuner.
Old Bud
ringing
Posted: 18 May 2007 7:03 am
by Don Sulesky
My guess is because it has happened with two different steels that the cause is in your hands and the way you attack the strings. By that I mean where you place the palm of your hands and the angle at which you strike the strings. I have noticed that if I'm not set up correctly I will on occasion get a clicking sound from my 5th string and it is because of what I described above with my hand and finger positon.
Don
Posted: 18 May 2007 8:31 am
by Mike Wheeler
Lee, to answer you question, yes, any crud, corrosion, or "junk" will cause the string to vibrate incorrectly, and can cause bad, or incorrect, harmonic overtones...and even that sitar sound. Wiping the strings off (bottom side too) after playing helps to keep them sounding good longer.
I've bought "brand new" strings that had small areas of corrosion on them. To me, that's a defect, and I send them back. They won't sound right and often cause intonation problems. String sets can sometimes sit for many months in a dealer's shop and develop corrosion...and they won't even know it.
Posted: 18 May 2007 2:18 pm
by jerry harkins
I've had the same problem, and it was a bad string.
If the string is not smooth when you slide your finger down it, then chances are it's bad.
I think it depends on how many inflections it has.
JMO.
Jerry.
ringing strings
Posted: 18 May 2007 8:54 pm
by Jack Klein
Lee, I had the same problem when I got my new Hilton pedal. talked to Keith and he told me how to tune the pedal and got better but am still am working on combo of pedal and amp ( nash. 1000 ) have you changed pedals?. just a thought. Jack
Re: Ringing 4th String
Posted: 22 Aug 2018 9:08 am
by Lee Baucum
Lee Baucum wrote:On both the old Emmons Push/Pull that I used to play and on the Mullen that I now play, I get a very distracting high-pitched ringing on the 4th string (E9 tuning). It is most apparent from the 7th through the 12th frets.
I'm not talking about the "sitar" sound you get when there is a groove worn on top of the changer finger. This is more of a harmonic over-tone. None of the other unwound strings produce this over-tone. The strings are new. I tried moving the roller nut to a different position. I put the drop of oil on both sides of the roller. I have tried putting a cloth across all the strings, behind my left hand and on top of the strings behind the roller nut, to cut out the vibrations behind the bar. The ringing is still there and just on that E string. I've even tried picking the string in different places, with no change.
I remember this coming up several times before, on the "old Forum", but haven't seen it discussed lately.
Anybody else have this problem?
Lee, from South Texas
I just love resurrecting old discussions!
I changed strings on my Williams guitar a few days ago and am having that overtone ringing and whining on just the 4th string (E9). Again, this isn't the sitar effect from a slot worn in the changer. The top of the changer finger is just fine and the roller on the nut is just fine. There are distinct harmonics or overtones ringing when I pluck the string. Plucked open, the E sounds just fine; but, there is also another E ringing, one octave higher. On some frets, instead of an octave, it is a 5th, other frets a 3rd. I loosened the string and turned the ball end over, just for grins. No change. I've tried plucking the string at different places, to no avail. There is always that annoying ringing tone. I don't see any obvious marks or discoloration on the string.
I'm going to pull that string off and replace it later on today and see if that corrects it.
If you take the time and do a search, you will find quite a few other discussions about this, along with discussions about the sitar effect caused by grooves worn in the tops of the changer fingers. That is not the case with my guitar.
Others, including Paul Franklin, have commented about this phenomenon and the usual fix is to just put on a different string. I guess I'll see!
Re: Ringing 4th String
Posted: 22 Aug 2018 1:38 pm
by Al Evans
Lee Baucum wrote:Lee Baucum wrote:...and the usual fix is to just put on a different string. I guess I'll see!
Yeah, "defective string" would be my guess, based on plenty of experience with guitars.
--Al Evans
Posted: 22 Aug 2018 6:47 pm
by Fred Treece
Okay, it’s night time in Texas...did you get that string changed yet? I would sure like to know if that was it. I have had similar problems and am also wondering whether to blame the guitar or the string or the player.
Ringing 4th string
Posted: 22 Aug 2018 7:16 pm
by Bobby D. Jones
I would say it is a bad string, Or bad order of strings.
The 4th string, If the wire in the string is not tempered perfect, It will work harden from being lowered by the D knee lever and raised by the F knee lever. This will cause a curve in the wire that is to hard to bend back and fit tight against the finger. It will pick the string up off the finger.
This can allow the string to buzz against the finger, And also can actually lengthens the scale on the string by 1/16" to 3/32" by not contacting the finger tight.
Some people have wrote, "They force a piece of paper between the finger and the string will stop it from making the strange harmonic sound". But it just shows that the string is raising up off the finger.
If you have several sets of these strings in stock, You may want to order enough strings to replace the 4th string in all the sets you have in stock and a few spares. Good Luck in working your way through this problem.
Posted: 23 Aug 2018 6:05 am
by Lee Baucum
Okay. I changed the string last night. Different brand.
That took away almost all of the ringing harmonics...almost.
It was a huge improvement.
I did notice, though, that the ringing disappeared when the string was lowered or raised with a pedal or knee-lever.
So, what I did was lower the string to a D#, using a knee-lever, then used my right thumbnail to press straight down on the string, right where the string leaves the changer finger.
That fixed the problem.
I guess the string was raised ever so slightly coming off the changer finger.
Posted: 23 Aug 2018 8:49 am
by Tucker Jackson
Sounds like a flat spot on the top of the finger. The radius of the finger may be slightly off, either from wear or some prior sanding out of a groove.
If it's aluminum, you could try to sand it back into shape. Another more complicated option would be to remove the changer and swap that finger with a more pristine one, like maybe the 9 string.
Posted: 27 Aug 2018 12:13 am
by Godfrey Arthur
Lee Baucum wrote:I replaced it with a D'Addario .015 that I had in my stash of strings. That helped quite a bit. I don't know if it's the different size, or just the fact that it was new.
D'Addarios do magical things to guitars. I have a Tele that came with D'Addarios. Changed the strings to EB's and there went the spank and the charm. Put back the D'Addarios and it went back to the reason I bought the guitar.
Posted: 27 Aug 2018 10:47 am
by Jerry Roller
Get some .0145 (14.5) strings for number 4. I think your problem is in the strings. I had a batch of .014’s that caused the same problem.
Jerry