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Origins of the Pedal Steel: India?

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 6:47 am
by Bruce Burhans
This looks like a _very_ interesting instrument.

It can be heard on the soundtrack to "Help" by
the Beatles.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The vichitra veena is played with the help of a small
egg-shaped glass, called batta, which looks like
a paper weight (although it is bigger than a paper
weight), held in the left hand and made to slide upon
the strings. In the right hand, the artist wears
sitar-like plectrums on the index and middle fingers.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

description and drawing

Image

Bruce in Bellingham

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Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 01 June 2005 at 07:52 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 7:37 am
by Bob Hoffnar
There is a wealth of great slide music from that culture !
The guys around here call it Hawaiian guitar at the Indian music stores. I don't know what came first.

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Bob
intonation help




Posted: 1 Jun 2005 7:53 am
by Bruce Burhans
Bob Hoffnar,

According to that website, the instrument is fairly
modern, from the mid-nineteenth century.

As for calling it "Hawaiian guitar"? Would YOU drop into a
shop that said:

"Vichitra Veena Taught Here!"

Sounds like an obscure Indian martial art.

:-/

Well, I have to get back to my droneless electric
pedal vichitra veena.

:-\

Bruce in Bellingham

------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Bruce Burhans on 01 June 2005 at 09:25 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 9:27 am
by b0b
No pedals. Topic moved to correct Forum section.

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 9:38 am
by Gerald Ross
Vichitra Veena players are always complaining about "gourd drop".

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Image
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 9:39 am
by Ron !
It's all on the Internet boys.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>As we know guitars while some guitars may have made their way to Hawaii in the early 1800's along with the many European sailors who visited Hawaii, the origin of Hawaiian guitar music is generally credited to the Mexican and Spanish cowboys who were hired by King Kamehameha III around 1832. It was from the Hawaiian cowboys, or paniolos, that the tradition of Hawaiian slack key guitar music finds its roots.

This Spanish guitar was a gut string guitar. The actual origins of the Hawaiian steel guitar may never be known for sure.

"Steel guitars were originally invented and popularized in Hawaii. Legend has it that in the mid 1890's Joseph Kekuku, a Hawaiian schoolboy, discovered the sound while walking along a railroad track strumming his Portuguese guitar.
He picked up a bolt lying by the track and slid the metal along the strings of his guitar. Intrigued by the sound, he taught himself to play using the back of a knife blade."
J.D. Bisignani in his Hawaii Handbook from Moon Publications adds to the story of Joseph Kekuku:

"Driven by the faint rhythm of an inner sound, he went to the machine shop at the Kamehameha School and turned out a steel bar for sliding over the strings. To complete the sound, he changed the cat-gut strings to steel and raised them so they wouldn't hit the frets. VoilĂ ! Hawaiian Music as the world knows it today."

"Although the popularity of steel guitar became firmly established in Hawai`i by the early 1900s, and soon after in the country music field, it had few teachers. Those early legendary steel players were so much in demand to perform and record that they had no time to teach others, had they wanted to. Thus, in the '60s the art and technique of playing Hawaiian steel was almost lost."

The art form itself has seen numerous offshoots and developments in its relatively short lifetime. As Randy Lewis explains in his The Steel Guitar - A Short History: "With the introduction of amplification in the 30's, the steel guitar (like the Spanish guitar) gained pickups and became the electric steel guitar. Since an acoustic body was no longer necessary and actually caused feedback problems, the steel guitar quickly acquired a solid body and became the first true lap steel."

"There is no one standard tuning for the steel guitar and the solid body electric steel allowed for instruments to be made with two, three and even four necks, each tuned differently. Multiple necks made holding the instrument on the lap almost impossible, and legs were added, making the first 'console' instruments, although a few single neck consoles were already being played by 'steelers' who preferred to stand. At the same time, the steel picked up two more strings (there were a few seven string steels) and by the end of WWII the double neck eight string console was fairly standard, although even today there are still many players who prefer a single neck six or eight, especially in Hawaiian and Western Swing music."

"In the early 50's several players began experimenting with adding pedals which raised the pitch of a string, and in 1953, Bud Isaacs was the first player to use a pedal steel guitar on a hit recording: "Slowly" by Webb Pierce. The sound quickly caught on and many steel players converted to playing the 'pedal sound'"

Over the years the sound of the Hawaiian steel guitar has found its way into many forms of American and world music including blues, "hillbilly", country and western music, rock and pop and also the music of Africa and India.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ron

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 01 June 2005 at 10:40 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 1:44 pm
by Bob Stone
And of course, anything you find on the Internet is totally true and accurate...

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 2:36 pm
by Bruce Burhans
Bobby Lee,

You moved this here because the instrument being
discussed has no pedals, you say.

I could buy that if you had done the same thing with
the previous discussion, which spanned two pages:

"Telling the Story of the Guitar"

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010327.html

Which refers to an instrument that isn't even a steel guitar
and turned into a discussion of the origins of the pedal steel.

Most of the instruments discussed there had no pedals.

This one, which is another in the same 'series'
actually has "pedal steel" in the subject and is
properly identified as another look into this amazing
instrument's history and predecessors.

Some of those predecessors have pedals.

So I guess I'll have to wonder if you are going to
move it back to the pedals section in the middle of
the discussion if one of those instruments comes up?

This is not acceptable. Neither is your inconsistency.

I will not be responding here further.

Bruce in Bellingham



------------------
Sho-Bud S-10 Pro-I 3+5 -- http://tinyurl.com/65rcv

Wooden Steels Rock!

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 2:47 pm
by Jeff Au Hoy
Bye bye Bruce.

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 4:03 pm
by Denny Turner
Posting a link into a discussion or into a new topic-clone with link ...from one board to another board's discussion, ...is simple enough to avoid hoo-hoo.

Good and interesting info though; Thank You.

Aloha,
DT~
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2005 at 05:04 PM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 1 Jun 2005 4:35 pm
by Bob Hoffnar
Bruce,
I'm not sure you understood my post. The Indian music stores I'm talking about are for the local Indian population. It is very unusual for a white guy to wander in.
If I ask them about a vichitra veena they look at me blankly. If I ask about a Hawaiian guitar they grab a couple Indian music Cds for me to check out.
I've been to a couple vichitra veena concerts in NYC. Those guys are smoking players.

------------------
Bob
intonation help




Posted: 1 Jun 2005 6:59 pm
by HowardR
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>This is not acceptable. Neither is your inconsistency.

I will not be responding here further.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Me too! I'm taking my vichitra veena and I'm walkin'!

<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>anyone for some curried possum?</pre></font>


Posted: 1 Jun 2005 7:48 pm
by Brad Bechtel
When I've visited Indian music stores in my area, I usually just ask for "guitar" CDs. So far every one I've found features steel guitar rather than regular guitar.
I personally think the steel guitar's origins might have been influenced by Joseph Kekuku witnessing an Indian musician playing something similar to this instrument, but it's impossible to know if that's true.
I believe he came up with the steel guitar himself.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars


Posted: 1 Jun 2005 9:46 pm
by Dan Tyack
I personally think it all came from people watching Looney Tunes cartoons. I think those guys got it from aliens. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.

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www.tyack.com


Posted: 1 Jun 2005 10:02 pm
by David L. Donald
Bruce interesting discussion...

I don't really think it makes ANY difference
if it is in one forum or another.

Now it is in two and the No peddlers are likely to ALSO see it.
So no loss and a possible gain.

I am sure this was part of b0b's rational.
So.... relax and enjoy....

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 4:26 am
by Wayne Carver
Isn't it possible for the same instrument or anything for that matter to have more than one origin? I would think the drum or flute was being made by different cultures who had never even heard of each other. I've always found it interesting how the various world religions have similar beliefs, stories, etc.

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 5:31 am
by George Redmon
why do i have to come all the way over here to read this madness? what i have seen of todays "New India" it has all but lost it's culture anyway..how many india indians play steel guitar...that answer is simple...0
maybe b0b should open up two new sections to the forum....Pedal vichitra veena , and of course non pedal vichitra veena ....
Out of respect for my non peddler friends i will leave off my signature...it would be a great show of respect if all other pedal steelers would do the same..then of course i find this post has just been edited..Page2<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by George Redmon on 02 June 2005 at 06:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 6:22 am
by Bill Hatcher
Bruce. We are going to have to take up a collection and send you to Sears Internet Charm School.

Taking a swipe at bOb is off limits, and not appreciated no matter where he moved your topic or for what reason. bOb has always exemplified restraint and patience no matter what came up in the sections of the Forum that he moderates. You should apologize for your remark.

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 7:49 am
by Brad Bechtel
<SMALL>how many india indians play steel guitar?</SMALL>
Quite a few, actually.


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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars


Posted: 2 Jun 2005 8:17 am
by David L. Donald
Ditto the last two posts.

Saw Debashis on a DVD, the cat is smoking.
FORUMITE Dave Mason is a big fan of his.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 02 June 2005 at 09:18 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 9:44 am
by David Doggett
This Indian instrument was apparently very rare even in India in the 1800s. And there were not many Indians in Hawaii. So it seems unlikely Hawaiians got the idea of steel guitar from India. It could simply be parallel evolution. There were of course many Chinese in Hawaii. So the Chinese zither played with a slide is an interesting possibility as the inspiration for Hawaiian steel guitar. But we have not heard any evidence that this 12th century Chinese instrument was still played in China in the 1800s, or that any Chinese had them in Hawaii. So this remains merely a speculation. It is entirely possible that this was also parallel evolution and that the Hawaiians reinvented the slide technique with no knowledge of previous slide playing in either China or India.

And, Bruce, get the chip off your shoulder and leave b0b out of it. He does this all with donated time and equipment, and he usually has reasonable patience, although we all have our limits. You have made three very controversial suggestions (a pedal steel is a harp rather than a guitar, steel guitar came from China rather than Hawaii, it came from India rather than Hawaii). You have sparked some interesting discussion, but let's keep it civil. The civility of the Southern Gentleman is very much a part of the steel guitar community in the U.S., and usually admirably sets the tone of Forum discussions. However, the redneck impatience with someone with a bad attitude can also quickly come into play. Image<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 02 June 2005 at 10:54 AM.]</p></FONT>

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 10:07 am
by HowardR
<SMALL>how many india indians play steel guitar?</SMALL>

No, no, no,.....you guys've got the joke all wrong. It's how many India Indians does it take to play steel guitar?


One to pick the gord, two to round up the goat....oh never mind! Image

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 10:07 am
by George Redmon
Hummmmm..the last time i saw an india indian playing steel guitar on TV, or listed on the credits of a new American CD was ummmm....
was......aahhh....was.....now the rest of the story!

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 10:20 am
by George Redmon
Sorry Brad..those are NOT steel guitar players on your web site..and Howard...if you are done with my paper weight slide...could i have it back please?

Posted: 2 Jun 2005 10:50 am
by Bob Hoffnar
George,
Indian guys do play steel guitars ! They play standard guitars with a raised nut by setting it on there lap and using a slide or they use plain old lap steels. They do the exact same thing steel players in the U.S. do except that they play a different style of music.

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Bob
intonation help