Cost of instruments

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

From a well known dealer in fine instruments. Kinda puts things in perspective.

“DINI”

Collectors and musicians count themselves lucky when a rare bass of major orchestra quality becomes available. Sometimes such a bass only surfaces once in a generation. Such is the case with this fine, Old Italian bass that has just come into our shop. During the last two generations this Testore school bass has been owned by players in the San Diego and San Francisco Symphonies. Now is the time for it to find a new home.

This bass possesses the quintessential Italian bass sound – loud and full, with a wide ranging, extended treble response. The sound projects well to the audience. Especially important for section performance, the instrument is fitted with an extension. This bass responds quickly to a light bow touch all the way down to the low C. You just won’t be working as hard to capture the sound you want.

There is a general consensus that this instrument is of Italian origin, Milanese in particular. The shape, dimensions, f-holes, scroll, and choice of materials suggest this is Testore School instrument. It features a flat back in six pieces of walnut. The top is constructed of six pieces of slab-cut spruce. Neither the top nor back is purfled. The overall condition of the instrument is remarkably stable and healthy with the lack of internal repair attesting to its history of good health.

This bass carries a label “Joannes Babtiste Dini fecit Ao 1756 Lucignanus,” which seems to have been attached at a later date, possibly in the 1940’s. Sources indicate a maker by the name of Giovanni Battista Dini from Lugano, circa 1690-1710. He was known to make instruments of fruitwood where the (flat) back and top tables are made from multiple pieces, the scroll is fanciful and narrow in the peg box, and there is little other ornamentation to the instrument.
$92,000
Specifications:
Upper bout width: 21"
Middle bout width: 15"
Lower bout width: 27 1/2"
Rib depth (inc. top & back): 8 3/8"
Playing string length: 41 1/2"

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Man I can buy lots of new pedal steels for $92,000. Now that I know they're such a bargain, I'm glad I took up pedal steel.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

That bass is cheaper than a Prewar Martin D-45 or a Loar F-5. Almost seems like a bargain for a fine classical instrument, really.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Tommy R. Butler · From: Nashville, Tennessee

Kinda like a FRANKLIN PEDABRO

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

"You just won’t be working as hard to capture the sound you want."

Isn't that what it's all about? That's the perfect sales pitch for an instrument.
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Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Ron ! · Posted 23 Mar 2007 7:39 am

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Don Helms' Gibson steel, the one he used with Hank Williams, is worth more than that. He was once offered "six figures" for it. Uncle Don replied "That would depend on which six figures." (The guitar is not for sale, BTW.)
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Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Wow, b0b, I saw that guitar just sitting by itself at a booth in St. Louis. Maybe there was someone nearby, but it was just sitting there amist the hustle and bustle. I just stopped and stared at it for minute, and thought about what it would say if it could talk.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

Addendum: the record price for a double bass at auction is $250,000 and change for a 1750s instrument by Domenico Montagnana. I've played a few basses of this quality, and they do indeed make it easier to play. You put the bow on the string, pull, and the sound just rolls out. Strings are a (minimum) yearly investment at $100-$350 a set. My point is that the most expensive PSG that is made to order for the player and adjusted to his or her physical characteristics is a pretty good deal.

Chris Allen Burke · From: Signal Hill, CA

As I see it, the main diff between 'em, superior Italian orcestral - ultimate Hillbilly contraption.
CAB

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

I don't see that much difference-two instruments made by hand by one person. One could argue that one is carved and the other is "assembled", but I see the amount of skill required as equivalent, albeit different. I'd say it took about the same amount of time for one of the great Italian luthiers to make a bass as it did for Jimmie Crawford (just as an example) to build a PSG. I don't know offhand what the lead time is for a contemporary bass maker, but I'd be surprised if it were less than a year.

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2007 7:50 pm

Umm...I don't think I can agree with that Steve. Pedal steels have only been made for about 50 years, and by a handfull of makers. The orchestral strings were perfected over hundreds of years by thousands of makers. Upon that foundation, some exceptional makers, over their entire lifetime, develop certain secrets that set their instruments above all others. Some of those secrets are passed on to select followers, but some are lost to the grave. Out of all the thousands made every generation, there are a select few instruments that stand out. Over the centuries, these are maintained and have been accumulated into the crop that supply the orchestras of the world. They are passed on to successive musicians and can cost in the 6 figures, and not the low ones. For top classical musicians, their instrument is the investment of a lifetime, way more than their cars or houses are worth. The insurance alone would kill most of us.

Then there is the matter that each instrument is entirely handcrafted over many days (I have no idea how many, but a lot) from raw wood and glue. And each is a one-off. Pedal steels do have some creativeness, ingenuity, and experience in their design. But then they are basically assembled all in the same way from bulk lots of prefabbed parts, in a few hours (or a few days tops), with a few minor final adjustments. Of course we who play them think they are works of art. But there is no comparison to a world class string bass or cello.

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

I do see your point, David; I do, however, see my MSA Millennium as a work of art on its own terms just as I do my 200+ year old bass. My main point remains that a PSG is a relative bargain in the world of fine handmade musical instruments.

David Doggett · Posted 24 Mar 2007 6:18 am

Steve, I absolutely agree with your last statement. In inflation adjusted dollars they cost half as much as they did when I started in the '70s, and they are much better. Smile

They are works of love hand assembled by small builders who don't make huge profits. Imagine if such an instrument were made by Martin or the Gibson Custom shop and what they would charge.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

The guitar is an instrument for EveryMan... inexpensive, very portable, self-accompaning, and easy to get to a very basic level of proficiency. Not so the pedal steel. One of the factors for this is the cost of entry.

At the risk of being flamed, I would venture to say that many of those complaining about the cost of steel guitars wouldn't settle for the take home pay or profit margin in their OWN jobs that steel builders earn building these things.

This griping about steel prices is really getting boring and tedious. Personally, if I realize I can't afford something, I don't get mad at those who make and sell the item. I realize that A) it's my responsibility that I don't have or make the necessary money, and B) I should borrow the money, sell something, or work harder to acquire the money. If someone doesn't have the bucks, he needs to face the facts that it's the sum total of the choices he's made in his life that's the reason for the shortcoming.

Hey, I'd love to own a Cadillac Escalade or a Lexus SUV. But they're out of my price range, since I didn't become a physician, attorney, or a risk-taking entrepreneur. I should have finished college, I guess. Wink

So I drive a suitable substitute. I don't go into the car dealership and gripe about the cost of their cars.

If someone truly wants a steel guitar, he'll find a way to get one.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

I hope you didn't think I was griping, Herb. I saw the bass listing I quoted at the top of this topic and it made me think of a few posts I've seen regarding cost of PSGs.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Not at all, Steve. I was referring to some things written in some other threads concerning the cost of steels, how inexpensive they *should* be, turnaround times, etc.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I, personally, don't think that the price of today's steels are out of hand. In fact, I think they're a bargain for todays economics. If you buy a "new" steel, you can get it customized by the builder, for your own tunings, positioning of the pedals and knee levers, and what type pickup you want. Also, the color, wood or laminate, inlays, wood or aluminum neck and who knows what else. Back in the mid 70's, when I was on the "balls of my ###", and didn't have a "pot to #### in", it was pretty hard to dig up $1,200 or $1,500 for a new ShoBud or Emmons. But, I think that most of us are beyond that status, even the young kids have money to spend. Even if you don't like to play anymore, the resale of a fairly new steel is pretty high. You don't lose much economically. Some guys buy and sell their steels as often as they change their socks. As compared to a classical instrument or a grand piano, we really shouldn't complain too much. The steel industry is at its' best and getting better.

David Doggett · Posted 24 Mar 2007 9:16 am

Herb I mostly agree with you. But I understand where some of the complaining is coming from. A beginner can go into Guitar Center and get a student acoustic guitar or an electric guitar and tiny amp for under $100 bucks. They are dirt cheap. In the $300 to $600 range you can get something that is actually pretty decent for learning. In the $800 to $1000 range you can get something that would do faily well to go out and do semi-pro work in small rock clubs. The guitars are mass produced abroad; and the amp needs to be only a low to medium power amp with early break up. You can get the low end stomp boxes in the $20 to $60 range and have some interesting effects. This is all something low income kids can do with some after-school work and a little help from mom and dad.

Then they look at pedal steel, and even the least expensive starter guitar is close to a thousand, maybe $400 used. What is considered a low to medium powered clean amp for steel will cost at least $500. And a suitable volume pedal costs over $100. It will cost over a thousand just to get the very cheapest starter rig. If you can find everything used, you might get it all for under $800. It is just an entirely different ball game.

You and I understand that the instrument is more elaborate and expensive to make. They are USA made in small quantities. And a medium powered clean amp costs more to make than a low powered distorting one. But just comparing the sticker prices, many low budget beginners are discouraged and dissappointed. Unfortunately, that's just the way the world is. There will always be a whole slew of people who can dabble with beginning guitar for peanuts. That just ain't ever gonna happen with pedal steel. It will always take some committment, planning and sacrifice. Complaining cant change that, and it is not the fault of the steel makers and the steel community.

Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

Being a guitar player who's getting into steel playing I'm very surprised at the price of steels. Gibson charges $3399.00 for a Les Paul Custom. Wood, pickups, and some hardware. A pedal steel at least 4 more strings if not 14 more, legs, pedals, levers, and all sorts of other contraptions that I dont understand. Any moron can figure out how to fix problems with a 6 string barring major wood work but a pedal steel requires you to be a certified mechanic. I for one have no problem with the price of steels.

Dave Potter · From: Texas

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Can some of you guys explain to me when pedal steels became a public utility?

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Dave
Thanks for the compliments, much appreciated.

However, I'm puzzled that in one sentence you say you don't want to pursue the turnaround issue, and then you immediately pursue it. If the issue was moot to you, I would think you simply would leave it alone and not comment further.

Rather than write a long tome that basically just reiterates what Jim Palenscar and others said in the other thread, and what Chris Lucker just alluded to in this one, let me just quote a famous song by the Rolling Stones:

"You can't always get what you want."

Spend your money where you want to spend it, it's your right. There are builders that can provide a guitar to you in a matter of weeks. Some can't or are unwilling to do that, so don't patronize them. They will either succeed or fail in business. What's the big whup? To me, it's a non-issue.

Unless of course the particular guitar you desire is one that has a long waiting list. Then your desire becomes problematic for you. In the movie "Barbarosa," Willie Nelson's character says "The Mexicans have a saying. That which cannot be changed, must be endured."
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Dave Potter · From: Texas

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