The Steel Guitar Forum

First, I was wondering how many of you out there use the newman tuning? Ive found it to work great when The guitar is in tune. However, last night I set up in a hurry, and found myself out of tune. I was having trouble tuning by ear to the guy I was playing with because he's NEVER in tune Typically, I wouldnt play with this guy, but its good money. I never bring the chart to the gig. I couldnt remember the newman tuning. How do you guys remeber it? or do you actually bring the chart with you? there should be a newman tuner if theres not one already.

I use the newman tuning with some slight changes i make sure i tune every day so i remember it
jerry

Time to go.......

My tuning has ended up real close to the Newman settings and
I have found that a bunch of strings end up being pretty close to straight up on my stomp box tuner when I have the pedals down.
Strings 8,6,4 and 3. If I'm not using compensators on strings 7 and 1 they end up real close with pedals down also. So I just rough tune that batch of strings and adjust the rest by ear.
You might try not using a tuner when you practice at home so you can tune by ear on stage. If you are using the Newman numbers its pretty easy to hear the sweet spot once you get a reference tone.

Its just what I do. It wouldn't work for everybody.

I used to keep my tuning on a 3x5 card. I've memorized it now.

thanks for the tips. Tuning by ear typically works best for me. I hardly ever use my tuner. I think thats why I got so flustered with my tuner on stage when I was having problems with my ear. however, my girlfriend informed me that last night was a full moon. I honestly think that was the problem. My whole world is out of tune when the moon is full.

After decades of trying everything else,my life got real easy when I got a Peterson tuner and took the time to program my offsets into it. With that thing hanging on the leg of my steel I can silently tune every string and change dead on in a noisy beer joint - during a tune if necessary. My steel and most steels these days hold their tuning very well, so very often the whole guitar will perfectly in tune with itself but flat or sharp to 440 because of temperature differentials. This problem is usually solved by getting your steel on the bandstand or set up and ready in the wings at least a half hour before downbeat. A last minute tuning tweak and you're ready to rock.

I use the Newman offsets as a starting point and then make small adjustments by ear. I printed it on an index card too and had it more less memorized up until I bought a VS-II tuner.
I never paid much attention to the endless JI vs ET tuning debates but being bored the other evening I tried tuning everything straight up with the VS-II to get an idea of what ET's all about. Whoa! It sounded so bad to me that I'd quit the instrument if that was the only way to tune. I know some of the most highly regarded players tune ET and they don't sound out of tune when I listen to them. I wonder what accounts for it? I can't imagine anyone sounding in tune on my guitar with it tuned straight up.

Fewer and fewer steelers sound "in" to me anymore. I attribute the problem to more and more steelers tuning ET nowadays (a process which admittedly makes nothing perfectly "in"). In the old days, you almost had to tune JI, as there was no accurate way to tune ET (unless you wanted to count beats). Accurate tuners now allow you to be precisely and repeatedly out-of-tune, and I'm not sure that's a good thing for most players. Comparing some steelers' stuff done quite recently to stuff they did 30-40 years ago, the older stuff is far "sweeter" sounding to my ears.

I'm not at all fond of "beats" and two of today's crop of steelers that fulfill all my expectations for being essentially "beatless" are Tommy White and Paul Franklin.

Alex, I originally used the "Newman tuning" as he had refined it in the late 70's, as it was closer than what I'd come up with on my own, but found that I sounded in tune everywhere but open. Eventually I adjusted and tweezed, and wrote the settings that matched my Korg tuner on a card that fit into my spare string packet. After using it every night for a short while, it gets memorized, but still handy if needed.
Eventually, Jeff revised his tuning a few cents and it was again very close to what I had figured out. Putting me quite close to the current Peterson presets.
Without debating the various tuning methods here, (plenty of that in the thread archives- don't let it make you want to give up on steel!) I think the Newman-type tunings allow for centering the pitches around what sounds sweet to many ears- while allowing for cabinet drop and other mechanical issues that affect each guitar and player differently.
Whatever "method" you go by, it's really handy, and sometimes mandatory, to have a charted or memorized system you can use with your tuner to get silently, quickly, and repeatedly to where you are comfortably in tune for yourself to play with others.
Some of the acts I play with would have no patience for any plinking before or between tunes. The Petersons are a godsend in that regard.
Best of luck in tuningland!

I've got it memorized, but I have it written down in case I forget.

Remember, a broken watch is right twice a day.

I'm right behind Richard B on this one..


I've only got one gig of RAM...



EJL

Eric West wrote:I've got it memorized, but I have it written down in case I forget.

All strings 440? Maybe you should get a tatoo.

he he....good one b0b.

I use the Newman tuning since I started playing and that is a long time now.I love it and like people said before me.You will learn real quick to memorize it

Well b0b I seem to have lost my short term memory, so I've taken to only tattooing the most important stuff like my address and stage name.

All the rest, like "don't expect too much today" or "don't trust these 'mf's," I do in waterproof sharpies on my hand.

That, after one morning Sam my Labrador licked my hand to wake me up, and I ended up dissapointed and betrayed by midmorning..

I have the Newmann Tuning Chart printed out and in my case in case one of the local "Detuners" does a "Wall of Steel" with me and forgets theirs...

Mine's pretty Easy:

(0:> O <:0)



EJL

I use the settings that come with the Peterson VS-II.I agree with
Michael Johnstone that the guitar usually stays in tune with itself,but temperature changes effect it..Let's see 30 below outside...inside the club 80 above? I try to let my guitar sit for about 1/2 an hour also.I did a recording session this past Fri and one of the songs was about a 1/4 tone sharp so I had to use what's left of my ears.

There are some simple rules of thumb to help you think your way through.

On E9, open strings 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 10 are an E7 chord with strings 4 and 8 as roots.

All the other strings, 1, 2, 5, and 7, are a B chord, with string 5 as the root.

On any chord, roots, 4ths and 5ths are approximately straight up to each other.

Major 3rds and 7ths are 14 cents (3.5 Hz) flat of the root. I round this to 12 cents (3 HZ).

Minor 3rds and 7ths are 16 cents (4Hz) sharp of the roots. Accordingly, the 6th of a major scale, which is the root of the relative minor that uses the same scale notes, is 16 cents flat of the major scale root. A 6th tuned that way works as either the 6th of the major scale I6 chord, or the root of the relative minor chord.

So you really only need to know 3 numbers: straight up (Hi, Eric ), -12 cents, +16 cents; or 440, 437, 456. In a pinch, you can forget about that extra 4 cents (1 Hz) for the 6th and minor 3rds and 7ths. If you tune everything either straight up, or 12 cents (3 Hz) one direction or the other according to the above rules, you will have very acceptable intonation in playing. So that's really only one number other than straight up.

So basically I tune everything striaght up to begin with. I know string 2 is the 3rd of the B chord, so I tune that to 437; and I know strings 3 and 6 are the 3rds of the E chord, so I also tune them 437. String 9 is the minor 7th of the E chord, so I tune that to 456. I'm done. I've only used two numbers other than straight up.

For Just Intonation there is no conflict between the E and B chords, because B is the V chord of the key of E, and so both chords are taken from the same E scale. Also, when tuning the A and B pedal stops, A is the IV chord of E, and so likewise is taken from the same E scale with no conflicts. This is one of the simplifying concepts that makes the E9 tuning work out so well with Just Intonation charts such as the Newman charts. The Newman charts differ from the above rules on some strings or stops by 1.0 - 0.5 Hz; but you would be very hard pressed to hear those increments outside of tuning alone in a very quiet room.

There are other refinements that can be added to the above. To compensate for about 8 cents (2 Hz) cabinet drop, I add 4 cents (1 Hz) to all the open strings; and I subtract the same amount from pedal or lever raise stops. So basically, my reference pitch for unpedalled open stings is 441, and for raise stops it is 439. This is very similar to what happens in the Newman chart that references the Es to 441. Lowers that release multiple or heavy gauge strings can actually cause cabinet rise. So I tune those stops 4 cents (1 Hz) sharp to match the rise that occurs in all the other strings. All these compensations are added to (or subtracted from) the above simple rules.

Another refinement is that I know on my 12-string uni, or on 10-string C6, bar pressure adequate to keep the strings from rattling causes the two lowest strings to go sharp. So tuning at the nut, I tune those two a little flat, and they sound right when I use my bar up the neck.

Also, one should know that the F# on strings 1 and 7 as tuned above will not work well as the root of the F#m chord with the B and C pedals. Some people split the difference. I tune as above, and get the F#m root by raising string 8 on my C pedal from E to F#. As the root of that minor chord, that stop is tuned 16 cents (4 Hz) flat of the A stops on pedal B, so that those As will be minor 3rds appropriatly 16 cents (4 Hz) sharp of the root of that minor chord.

When you put all those refinements together, you have a fairly complicated chart, something like the Newman charts, if you were going to memorize it from scratch. But if you know the simple rules above, and the two chords involved, you can easily think your way through tuning the open strings. And, with a few more chords and a little more thinking, you can tune stops if needed.

Of course it is way easier to take a single reference pitch and tune those chords by ear to what sounds good open at the nut. Then put the bar at the C fret (8th) and do some fine tuning. By doing that, I automatically do everything above.

David - How do you tune the F#'s on your guitar? Are they beatless with the B's or beatless with the C#'s? Or are they beatless at all?

Good question. I tried to explain it, but I guess I wasn't clear. I tune the F#s on strings 1 and 7 beatless with the B on string 5. That's a JI B chord; and since the B is the 5th of the E chord, and the F#s are the 5ths of the B chord, they are all tuned approximately straight up (plus half my cabinet drop). I tune the F# on the 8th string raise of my C pedal beatless with the C# stops of the C pedal. Those are the root and 5ths of a JI F#m chord.

The 1st and 7th string F#s also are the 6ths of the pedals-down A chord. For JI they should be 16 cents (4 Hz) flat of the B pedal A note stops (the roots of that A6 chord). Instead they are approximately straight up with the B pedal stops. Straight up ET tuners can't complain about that. A 6th chord is a bit of a dissonant chord, so that ET tuned A6th doesn't sound too bad to me. As the root of the relative F#m chord, it is noticeably sharp. But I have at least 3 other ways to get that chord.

If you don't have my 8th string raise on your C pedal, you can try to compromise the B and F#m chords by tuning the F#s on strings 1 and 7 about 4-8 cents (1-2 Hz) sharp of straight up; but that will make the A6 chord sound worse. A mechanical compensator is really the only way to deal with that.

I always use a tuning fork (A=440) to tune the A on my C 6th neck and then tune everything else using octaves and harmonics. When I transfer the top E note from the C 6th neck to the E neck , I tune it open with the A and B pedal down, and the rest by harmonics and octaves, plus other tricks.

When I have new srtrings (usually the top G#) I always check it after every tune until it settles in.

I never could tune using strictly a tuner (of any type) that would get me any better than using just my ears.

Thanx,
Jim

I make sure my guitars are adjusted correctly and everythings in tune on it before I take it out to play. I also use a VS-II with the Newman presets. I check mine at the end of every set. With temperature changes and so on, I only usually make very minor adjustments if any. On the guitar I've been using on weekends, a D-10 Magnum, all I do is check it before we start at 8:00pm. After that, It's in perfect tune till midnight, when we quit playing. I suggest using the same brand and gauge strings on every string changing to help prevent tuning problems. Once you get a guitar set with certain gauges, etc., there shouldn't be any tuning issues. Be sure all of the bellcranks are secure and nothing is slipping or binding also. A few drops of light oil can really do wonders.