The Steel Guitar Forum

xzzzx

Some body please help Mike,before he get's The SHOCK of his life.I can't,don't know anything about that electric stuff,was raised with a fireplace,wood stove and a kerosene lamp.Used a battery radio to hear the Grand Ole Opry.

Mike, without knowing the exact makeup of wall construction, what type of conduits/cable you have, not being able to run test equipment on every box and outlet and about 50 other details,it's absolutely essential for your safety that you call a licensed electrician. A grounding/partial rewire on a prefab unit should not be terribly expensive - and it'll be loads cheaper than a funeral.

And I wish that was a joke, but it's really not.

For starters, at least try your outlets with one of those testers with 3 lights on them ?

I agree with Jim. You need a local, licensed electrician.
None of us could give you proper advice without visiting your place and doing a survey of what is presently installed.
Improperly wired systems are dangerous not only for the possibility of electric shock but also for fire.

Blake

I totally agree with Jim and Blake. Don't take a chance on your life and property. An amatuer has no idea of all the safety measures, and procedures, necessary to correct problems in an electrical system like you describe. Please, call a professional.

Hi,

Jim gives very good advice on this subject, as do the others.

While I am not actively in the contracting profession in the last few months, I have spent 20 years as a licensed electrical and mechanical contractor in North Carolina. I keep my licenses and continuing ed up to date and active. I presently am building a packaging plant for our laundry detergent product, so I still use the skills daily. OK, credentials out of the way.

Most manufactured homes from a few years back were notorious for using aluminum wire instead of copper as a cost cutting measure. Aluminum is a good conductor, and properly installed and MAINTAINED, very safe. Aluminum does corrode over time, and the situation that you describes sound very much as if a ground or a neutral conductor has corroded and/ or broken from it's terminal.

Terminal is the key word here, because it could very well be terminal for you or someone else in your home.

A well trained, properly licensed electrician should be able to locate the problem in an hour or less, and the repair should take no longer, and cost very little unless your whole system is fried. If they do indicate a need for a total re-wire, get more than one opinion.

But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE have someone who is qualified to evaluate your system. Anything less is very dangerous.

We'd all much rather talk to you than about you!

I know just enough to get by.

You should consult a qualified electrician about
your problems. ASAP.

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

A water pipe is not allowed to be the only grounding means for an electrical system per N.E.C. (National Electrical Code). It must be supplemented by an addition ground rod. There must be at least 10 feet of metal pipe in contact with earth as well. Most plumbing today is PVC, not metal.

The most commonly used ground system is two ground rods connected by a properly sized wire (determined by the service ampere rating). Those rods are not the closer than 6 feet to each other and the wire running to them must be continuous, no break at the first rod. It is looped under the acorn connector. Any metal water service or gas service must be bonded to the main panels ground buss bar with a #4 copper wire.

Also note that if you have aluminum wire in the home the devices used to replace existing (receptacles, switches, etc) must be rated Al/Cu, aluminum and copper. Aluminum wire expands and contracts as it is heats and cools, loosening connections. Aluminum wire is the most common at the service entrance panel. It's lugs are rated AL/Cu. NoLox, an anti-oxidant is used on the wires prior to lugging them down.


Grounding and bonding are nothing to messing with unless you are a licensed and trained electrician, period.



Ken Fox
Retired Electrician
Local 48 IBEW

From the Web I found this info that would be helpful in understanding the grounding and bonding a bit more:

INSTALLING THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM, AND THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTORS.

Definition of a grounding electrode conductor is that sole connection between the grounding electrode system [approved contact with earth] and the dwellings service. [meter base or main service disconnect or panel]. NEC 100 Definitions

An approved grounding electrode system is listed in NEC 250.52.A.1 through 7. The grounding electrode conductor is normally sized by NEC Table 250.66 A normal grounding electrode for a structure is usually a ground rod serving a dwelling NEC 250.52.A.5, or a metal water pipe in contact with the earth for at least 10’. NEC 250.52.A.1 If a water pipe is used then this metal water pipe must have a supplemental or auxiliary grounding electrode that is required to be associated with that metal water pipe. NEC 250.52.A.The supplemental grounding electrode is usually found to be a ground rod. NEC 250.53.D.2 The grounding electrode conductor may be run from the ground electrode system to the fourth grounding lug of the meter base that is electrically joined to the grounded [neutral] conductor and to the metal frame of the meter base itself. NEC 250.24.A.1 OR The grounding electrode conductor may be run from the grounding electrode system to the neutral / grounding combination bar or bars located in the main service rated panel or disconnect. NEC 250.24.A.1 The grounding electrode system serving a dwelling is usually a ground rod, because most grounding electrodes listed in NEC 250.52.A.1 through 7 are not available. You must land the grounding electrode conductor somewhere between the utility company’s point of attachment, most commonly either inside the meter base or inside main panel. The NEC allows you to use the neutral service conductor anywhere from the point of connection of the Utility Company to within the main service rated panel or disconnect. It is my opinion that should not run both a grounding conductor and a neutral conductor connecting in both the meter base at one end and the main service rated panel or disconnect at the other end of these two conductors. If you do you are creating a paralleling that sets it up so that if the big insulated neutral conductor fails that little bare grounding conductor will try to take that neutral’s place because they are both coming from and going to the same place. The NEC does not declare this paralleling on the line side of your main service rated disconnect or panel but I see it as a bad idea to invite this paralleling condition. If you create this paralleling condition you would never know you have a shock hazard because the little bare wire is taking the place of the neutral service conductor. Sounds like a bad idea to me. If the neutral service conductor installed on the line side of the main service disconnect acts as both the neutral service conductor and as the grounding conductor acting as a dual purpose wire as allowed in NEC 250.142 then if that neutral fails your 120 volt circuits will start causing your trouble by dimming etc. At least then you would know you have a problem. Bad part of this is that if your neutral service conductor fails then the 220 volt appliances may try to act as a neutral causing possible spikes in your electricity. My best thoughts on the subject is don’t create the paralleling design by installing the 4th wire being the grounding conductor between the meter base and the main service rated panel unless your power company or AHJ rules that you must do that.

It is advisable not to run a fourth conductor between the meter base and the main service panel, this would cause a paralleling affect not considered to be safe in the electrical field. A neutral service conductor carries the unbalanced load between the two hot conductors. If you ran a fourth bare grounding jumper between the meter base and the panel, and you happened to lose that larger, insulated, current carrying, neutral service conductor’s connection, then that little bare grounding jumper, installed parallel with that neutral and connected to the same places as that neutral, would try to take over the job of that larger insulated neutral. If this happens a bare, smaller, inadequate, conductor would suddenly be a current carrying conductor that has energized all metals exposed to people it is in contact with. This energized metal can provide a difference of potential to ground seeking an easier path to earth, probably, through your body. The neutral wire [white or gray service entrance conductor found between the meter base and the main panel is allowed to act as a duel purpose conductor, that is insulated and much larger. This neutral conductor [whiter or gray service entrance conductor] is allowed to serve as both the neutral and the equipment grounding path between the meter base and the main panel, regardless where you install the grounding electrode conductor coming from the grounding electrode system. Just my opinion, didn’t mean to become redundant on the subject of paralleling the neutral service conductor and the grounding conductor, it just happens to be one of my concerns in electrical design NEC 250.142.A and 250.24

The ground rod will most likely be the grounding electrode system for a dwelling because that will probably be the only grounding electrode available listed in NEC 250.52 at the time of wiring that dwelling. However, If you have a metal water pipe that is in direct contact with the earth for at least 10’ then you MUST use this metal water pipe as the main grounding electrode, NEC 250.52.A.1 then you must also install a back up grounding electrode listed in NEC 250.52.A.1 through 7 [usually a ground rod] associated with that metal water pipe grounding electrode just in case someone removes that metal water pipe and install a plastic water pipe in its place. NEC 250.53 If this replacement of a metal water pipe with a plastic water pipe would occur then your grounding electrode would have been removed and your dwelling would no longer have a grounding electrode system without the back up grounding electrode being present [usually a ground rod].

If a water pipe is available that is in direct contact with the earth for at least 10’ then the grounding electrode conductor connecting that water pipe grounding electrode to the main service panel or meter base must be connected within 5’ of the entry of the water pipe into the building. NEC 250.52.A.1

The NEC says that IF AVAILABLE any of the following must be joined together to make the grounding electrode system for your structure. NEC 250.50 Your primary grounding electrode must be the water pipe if available and only if it is in direct contact with the earth the required 10’ then also a supplemental grounding electrode must be installed. NEC 250.52.A.1 and NEC 250.54 The following are more grounding electrodes that you must use if available, the metal frame of a building or structure, NEC 250.52.A.2 any concrete encased electrodes [steel re-enforcing bars in concrete, etc.], NEC 250.52.A.3 a grounding ring [#2 copper found in footing of structure encircling the whole foundation that is at least 20’ long as a minimum length requirement but still encircling the entire foundation and at least 2 ½’ deep], NEC 250.52.A.4 and any made electrodes. [any metal underground structures even a metal frame of junk tractor, any underground tank, or any other metal pipes or rods such as ground rods. [If a rod or pipe, that rod or pipe must be at least ½” in diameter if made of ferrous metals, or at least ¾” diameter if iron or steel but iron or steel must be galvanized], NEC 250.32.A.5 any plate electrodes at least 2’ square in size and at least ¼” thick, NEC 250.52.6 and at least 2 ½’ deep. NEC 250.53.H ALUMINUM GROUNDING ELECTRODES OR GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTORS MUST NOT BE USED IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH EARTH. NEC 250.64.A

If a ground rod is the only grounding electrode available then that made grounding electrode [ground rod] will be your grounding electrode system. Remember that commonly most of the above mentioned grounding electrodes will not be available and / or be buried under the concrete, etc. before you get there. Therefore, none of those mentioned would commonly be considered available to you. If available then all the above mentioned grounding electrodes must be bonded together as one entity thus forming your grounding electrode system as required. IF THEY ARE AVAILABLE DURING THE TIME OF YOUR WIRING INSTALLATIONS. NEC 250.50

The grounding electrode conductor [that sole conductor between your grounding electrode and your service, no matter whether it is landed in the meter base or in the main panel or even at the weather head must not be broken anywhere from the grounding electrode to the point of attachment of the grounding electrode conductor. You must size the grounding electrode conductor meeting the requirements found in NEC Table 250.66. The minimum size grounding electrode conductor for a 100 amp service in copper will be #8. The minimum size for a 200 amp service in copper will be #4 The maximum grounding electrode conductor can not be required to be larger than a #6 when serving a made electrode only [usually a ground rod] NEC 250.66.A

Gas piping must not be used as a grounding source! NEC 250.52.B

BONDING METAL WATER PIPES

If you do not use the water pipes as the primary grounding electrode, because there is no metal water pipe in direct contact with the earth at least 10’ in length, NEC 250.52.A.1 and if your water pipes are metal, then you must bond your metal water pipes to the grounding electrode system. NEC 250.104.A This is required to make the water pipes one with the grounding electrode system the same as one entity. The purpose of bonding the metal water pipes to the grounding electrode system is so that if an energized wire comes in contact with those metal water pipes, a signal will go back to the panel that a short has occurred and the breaker serving or protecting that energized wire will trip due to a short circuit. This tripping of that breaker is due to the required interrupting rating of that breaker. NEC 230.208

You must bond the metal water pipes, and any other metal piping system, NEC 250.104.A including the gas piping NEC 250.104.B with the grounding electrode system of the structure. You must do this bonding of all metals of substantial quantities to make all metals one with the grounding electrode system serving that structure. The purpose of this bonding is to ensure that there is limited chance for a difference of potential between any metals in that structure, even the metal skin of a building. The intent is to make all metals one entity.

Metal gas piping systems must be bonded also, NEC 250.104.B BUT MUST NOT USED AS A GROUNDING ELECTRODE SOURCE, NEC 250.52.B jThe gas pipes must just be made “one with the grounding electrode system of the building as one entity”. This bonding may be done by incidental connection at a gas appliance by the connection of the branch circuit equipment grounding conductor that is feeding power to that gas appliance. If you have a gas furnace and that gas furnace is fed by a 14 Ga. nonmetallic sheathed cable [Romex]. The 14 Ga. bare equipment grounding conductor found in that branch circuit nonmetallic sheathed cable [Romex] will meet the equipment grounding requirements of the gas piping system. NEC 250.32.B

REMEMBER

YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE AN UNDERGROUND GAS PIPE AS YOUR GROUNDING SOURCE. NEC 250.52.B

If you have substantially plastic plumbing or any other nonmetallic systems that have short pieces of metal associated with the plastic systems such as metal water pipes of short lengths, like between the plastic plumbing in the crawl but metal pipes up through the floor into the faucets at the sink, you can omit these short pieces as not substantial. These not substantial pieces of metals are not required to be bonded to the equipment grounding system.

An explanation concerning the requirements of bonding these metal systems that are not in substantial contact with earth but are a substantial mass of metal can be provided in “laymen’s terms” as follows; A gas piping system, metal heat duct, metal water pipes of substantial quantity may become energized by a bared hot conductor [ungrounded conductor] that has been damaged and laying across the metal gas piping, etc. This scenario will create a short to the metal gas pipe, metal water pipe, etc. that will energize that metal piping to full voltage. If the metal piping or any other metal component is not bonded to the structure’s electrical grounding system, a signal can not be sent to the over current device [breaker or fuse] telling that over current device that a short exists. This signal is required to go back to the over current device to tell that over current device to trip due to its interrupting rating when a short circuit appears. If the piping system is not bonded to the electrical grounding system the shorted, energized piping will remain energized waiting to spark, or shock anyone or anything coming in contact with that metal piping system that has a contact to earth. This danger will exist as long as eternity and without warning if that bonding to the electrical grounding system is not present making that metal piping system one with the equipment grounding system of the dwelling.

If you are wet and you happen to touch that energized metal piping system, you will not like the experience, that is IF you live to tell about it. Bonding the gas piping and isolated water piping, and metal ducts, etc. to the equipment grounding system of your dwelling’ service can eliminate the potential for shock or explosive ignition of a leaking gas pipe due to an electrical spark caused by this difference of potentiality.

This term signal telling the overcurrent device to trip due to the interrupting rating of that overcurrent device [breaker or fuse] is actually a large rush of current momentarily present on the equipment grounding conductor going back to the panel system. This signal I am speaking of is kind of a misconception but seems to help in laymen understanding the short circuit process.

You must size the equipment grounding conductors by using NEC Table 250.122 The water piping systems must be connected to each other where broken but the structure is substantially with metal water pipes. You may bond the broken sections of metal water pipes such as the hot and cold of a water heater by installing a jumper grounding conductor between the hot and cold water pipes above that water heater. This connection of that bonding jumper is usually done by using what is called two piece grounding clamps. You may bond the water pipes to the grounding electrode system by connecting the nearest ¾ trade size water pipe of each system [hot and cold pipes] and then these must be connected to the main service panel NEC 250.104.A, these attachments to the water pipes of the grounding conductors must always be accessible. NEC 250.104.A This bonding conductor from the metal water piping system and the main service rated panel as required must be sized as a grounding electrode conductor sized by NEC Table 250.66 This bonding is intended only to make all metals in the structure as one entity, to keep the electrical system in contact with the associated metals found within a dwelling but are not normally used in the electrical system.

PROTECTING THE GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR

If you run the grounding electrode conductor within a wall and the outside and that grounding electrode is not likely to be exposed to severe physical damage, you are allowed not to protect that grounding electrode conductor further from physical damage. This is true only if you are running the grounding electrode conductor within the walls and only a short section is outside but protected from severe physical damage.

An example of installing a grounding electrode conductor inside a stud space can be viewed by clicking on the picture icon to the left.



An example of a grounding electrode conductor being protected yet not in a conduit would be the grounding electrode conductor hidden by the PVC conduit of a Utility Company’s down pipe protecting your Utility Company’s service lateral. [underground utility wire going to your meter]. NEC 250.64.B

If you run a conduit to protect the grounding electrode conductor running from the meter base to the earth located outside, then I suggest that you run only ½” PVC conduit down between the meter base and the earth or out a cement or cement block wall to protect that grounding electrode conductor.

An example of this type of protection using PVC can be viewed by clicking on the picture icon to the left.



You may connect the grounding electrode conductor to the made grounding electrode with a one piece acorn grounding clamp.

If you run a conduit to protect the grounding electrode conductor running from the meter base to the earth located outside, and you ran a metal conduit down between the meter base and the earth to protect that grounding electrode conductor. You must use a two piece ground clamp on the end of the metal conduit NEC 250.86 and NEC 250.64.E and NEC 250.92 and then you may connect the grounding electrode conductor to the made grounding electrode with a one piece acorn grounding clamp. NEC 250.92

You must not connect more than one grounding electrode conductor to a ground clamp. NEC 250.70 You may install more than one acorn grounding clamp to one made grounding electrode if you like. You must not use a two piece ground clamp in trying to connect the metal conduit to the ground rod at the same time connecting the grounding electrode conductor to the made electrode [ground rod]. NEC 250.70 and NEC 110.3.B The conduit will mash and become damaged, causing a loose connection for both the grounding electrode conductor and the required metal conduit grounding procedure. The ground rod and the clamp must be found below the sod or dirt or protected from physical damage. The NEC no longer wants the ground rod and grounding electrode conductor above ground due to the connection being damaged or loosened by lawnmowers etc. striking that connection. Just dig a shovel full out before you start driving your ground rod and then drive the rod below the finished grade of the dirt, or protect that connection substantially. NEC 250.53.G

You may view a grounding electrode connection by clicking on the picture icon below to the left, notice that the ground rod and the ground rod clamp that clamps the grounding service conductor to the ground rod is not visible because they both are buried under the sod as required for protection of that connection;

Speaking as somebody who has held Journeyman and Administrator (Master Electrician) licenses in Washington state , and currently employed as a degreed electrical engineer:

Mike!!! Don't mess with it!!! This stuff is weird and doesn't always look like it makes sense. It's worth the $50 to pay somebody to get it right!!!

-Paul

Mike,first off, Iam a licensed electrician by the state of Texas.Grounding is the most misunderstood thing in the electrical world.Here's a couple of things to check:

1.Since its a mobile home you have two breaker boxes.One is a main panel (out on the pole) and the other is a sub-panel ( in the house).Look to see if you have 4 wires coming from the main panel to the sub-panel.The 4 wires are 2-120 volt conducters coming out of the main breaker from the main panel to the main lugs in the sub-panel,1-neutral or grounded conductor and 1-ground or grounding conductor.Make sure you have the 4th wire (the ground wire ,it should be marked green)

2.In the sub-panel make sure all the grounds and neutrals(the branch circuits that are leaving the sub-panel from the breaker to your music room) are tight in the lug bars on each side of the panel.

3.Out at the main panel, check to see that your ground rod,your ground rod clamp and your bare #6 are all there and tight and in working condition,sometimes people cut them off short because they cant get all 8 feet drove into the ground,in the summer when its really hot and it has not rained it gets really dry around the ground rod and it slowly stops working.The deeper you can get it in the ground the more moist it is and its likely to stay fairly moist at 8 feet down, not 2 or 3 feet down like some people do.If you have to drive another ground rod in ,Ive found that if you drive it right beside the pole you can actually get in the same bore as the pole is in that the utility company has dug and the hard dirt and rocks are softened . You can also connect to the ground wire that is stapled along the side of the pole,it goes down to a copper plate that the pole sits on its an excellent ground.

4.You can also add a GFCI plug in your music room where you plug your equipment into and it will create a good ground at that one outlet,this a quick and inexpensive way to fix the problem of getting shocked thru your guitar,but you should really find the grounding problem and fix it for saftey reasons.But if you dont have a lot of electrical experience you should really pay a licensed professional.

zxzxz

If your soil is not to rocky you can drive them in with a small sledge hammer. Attached the acorn nut to the rod first and run some black tape around it. The reason for that is that the head of the ground rod will mushroom from the hammer blows! That will prevent you from slipping the acorn nut over it. Rods must be driven below ground level and a minimum of 6 feet apart.

The ground rod driver attaches to a roto-hammer. You might find one for rent.

xzxz

Be careful installing new ground rods; for what you are doing (a music room) you want only ONE GOOD GROUND. Multiple grounds give rise to phenomena known as ground loops, which hum a lot.

As noted above, you need someone knowledgable, and it wouldn't hurt if he knew a little electronics AND a little about music.

Sorry to disagree!

Two (2) ground rods are required by National Electrical Code and for good reason.

Ken, aren't those two rods bonded together to form one ground?

Yes they are typically bonded together via one continuous copper wire (bare #6 for a 200 amp service). That is accomplished by looping the wire under the acorn connector at the first rod. Rods are also below ground level (leave them exposed until final inspection by the inspector).

Grounding is an odd duck, here in Live Oak on one job it took 15 ground rods to come up to the proper reading, first time I ever heard if this. I just wired an Insurance office with 2 panels outside 200 amps inside 2 200 amp panels, 1 panel in the garage for future use and an extra panel for emergency use hooked to a power plant when power fails or storm, tied to the panel the girls pcs are hooked to so they can keep working, a fun job to say the least.
I did a cabin on the river, 12 volt,gas lights and 220 for in case they run power in that part of the river, also solor panel.
Electic can be interesting.

ernie

Wade, sorry to have to say this, but in the interest of safety - you are absolutely wrong. A GFCI does NOT create a ground!

Read the following article which clearly lays out what a GFCI can and can't do:

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

This is an example of why I advised hiring a licensed electrician who can look at the actual situation. But I'm shocked (no pun intended) that a licensed electrician would think a GFCI creates a ground where one does not exist!

Guys - look at the UL standards and look real closely at the definitions in NFPA documents and other federal standards.
A legal ground is 25 ohms. That won't trip a breaker.
If you do ohm's law calculation, you get 120/25=4.8 amps. Not enough to trip a breaker.
A ground rod(or rod system) is for lightening strike, as per the class they just had us take regarding fault current calculations.

It incidentally provides a voltage reference for the center tap of the single phase system.
It is the other stuff that provides an actual ground, like metal building and plumbing bonding and the plate they put under the distribution pole that is tied to the neutral up on the pole by the transfomer, and the actual low impedance return path to the neutral of the distribution transformer secondary.

This grounding stuff is written all crazy in the codes, like I said before. It is not real easy to analyze it with common sense, because there is so much unsaid. Everybody here that is giving free advice here is working without knowing what the actual situation at the job site is.

I would advise Mike to hire a professional and let him a) exercise his judgement and experience, and b) take the liability.

Nuff said. I'll get off my soap box.
If you really want grounding confusion, look at the conflict in the code between the requirement for a single point ground at the point of disconnection and the requirement that a permanently mounted motor generator set has to have the neutral bonded at the generator. It requires in one place you install a ground loop, and prohibits ground loops in another.
Also, look at the difference in definition between "grounding" and "grounded" conductors. World of difference.

I'll shut up now. Woof.

Whatever you do, don't pee directly into or on an an electrical outlet in your house. I'm not a licensed electrician, but I'm qualified to tell you that it would be good to avoid doing this.

You might want to check your local codes. South Carolina codes differ for mobile homes, county by county. Yours may, too. But a good LICENSED electrician will know the codes for your area.

What Mark said applies equally well to electric fences. The impedance of the ground return path is commonly swamped by the conductivity of etc etc