The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 9:50 am**

I've written this before elsewhere but I'll write it again here: I'd be absolutely thrilled if, just once in my lifetime, I were to record anything that would be as memorable and influential as that one recording by Garcia.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 10:12 am**

...Picasso sucks...

AGAIN, I'm misquoted...must be a conspiracy here?

What I actually said was...

Picasso? Yeah, he was just an average painter...I still don't think of him as a "great painter".

FWIW, I do value feeling, expression, and emotion in someone's artistic endeavors, be they in art or music. But unlike a lotta people, that's not all I value.

Have a nice day!

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 10:33 am**

But unlike a lotta people, that's not all I value.

And while we're on the subject of misquotations,- I can't remember anybody in here stating that's all they value either...

By the way,- I have heard very little of Garcia's PSG playing, so I'm only speaking in general terms. I like his singing voice though.

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www.gregertsen.com

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 10:52 am**

Rick Garrett, I concur! Garcia, Toy Caldwell et al, are patriarchs of Americana musical history regardless of their technical skills. My guess is that had Toy lived, he would be a fine player today and a frequent forumite. Still, they will both remain important figures in this world of music we all love no matter what our opinions of them may be. I am grateful for their contributions to my life in my formative years as a player.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 12:00 pm**

"Once again, I've been misquoted, misrepresented, and misinterpreted."

Barry, you certainly weren't misquoted by me, since I copied-and-pasted your actual words from your own posts.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 1:05 pm**

I always thought one of the main aims in creating music was to communicate feelings, and/or, hopefully, to move the listener...
obviously Garcia has accomplished that for legions of fans.

There have been many kinds of artistry over the centuries that depended on pure technique, and moved people one way or another, but always existing side-by-side with the "folk" art and music that, perhaps, reaches more people through sheer simplicity and heart[i/].

Plenty of room for both, and plenty to enjoy and be "moved" by. I never will understand the "my music can kick your music's ass" mentality.

BTW, there are actually hundreds of thousands of "Hippies" still alive and well, a whole new generation of them supporting a vast network of "Jam" bands, venues, and festivals. Having played extensively on that circuit, I can state with certantity that they are generally much more aware of Pedal steel than the average public- including "country music" fans- and frequently know about many steel players besides just Garcia and Randolph. Those two definitely lead the fans to the steel trough, though. It is really quite a joy to play one of the festivals and be literally thronged by youngsters wanting to know more, and watch a steel played up close.

I'd suggest that when a younger fan mentions Garcia as the top of the heap, rather than trying to steer them to Lloyd on a 70's Nashville date, you play them any of the fine live recordings of Buddy with Danny Gatton. Now there's a killer Jam band if I ever heard one...

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 1:39 pm**

Neither CSN or the Dead were anything but average bands. Their musical arrangements were quite advanced and intellectually brilliant. The musicianship in both bands was also excellent. Thats why they were so popular. Both bands were world class and filled stadiums of tens of thousands of people in their time. Again, technical excellence does not necesarilly mean that one player is better than another. If your a techno freak than you won't agree with this post. If it ain't played with soul it means nothing.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 2:46 pm**

I'd suggest that when a younger fan mentions Garcia as the top of the heap, rather than trying to steer them to Lloyd on a 70's Nashville date, you play them any of the fine live recordings of Buddy with Danny Gatton. Now there's a killer Jam band if I ever heard one...

Or perhaps the Dire Straits CDs with Paul Franklin.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 3:09 pm**

Whenever I heard him singing on his show, I always thought Mr. Ed did a fine job,..for a HORSE, of course!

One thing about this forum b0b, it's certainly COMPELLING![This message was edited by Jon Zimmerman on 09
October 2005 at 04:13 PM.]

Yep, and if you have the coroner on speed dial, Mr. Ed has truly succumbed to his injuries this time.[This message was edited by Jon Zimmerman on 09 October 2005 at 04:32 PM.]

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 4:44 pm**

Gee whiz! What is it with you guys?

Steinar spoke of mis-quotes, and made one himself! He said...

And while we're on the subject of misquotations,- I can't remember anybody in here stating that's all they value either...

You see, Steinar, I can't remember anybody saying that, either.

I know I didn't.

Go back and read my words again.

Those two very important words "in here" are yours, Not mine. I didn't say "in here". Please, if you quote someone, try to get it right.

But I still like you!

Have a nice day.

I'm done with this thread.

Posted: **9 Oct 2005 5:07 pm**

Sorry Donny, I must have misunderstood. I thought this discussion was based around what the members in here meant, so I took it for granted that you refered to what had been posted here.....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 09 October 2005 at 06:10 PM.]

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 8:48 am**

If I understand you correctly, Donny, you think of the Grateful Dead as an "average" band, in the same way that you think of Picasso as an "average" painter. I know those aren't your exact words, but it's my interpretation of your argument. Is it correct?

If so, it would seem that your standards for artistic excellence are quite different from mine, from those of the "art establishment", and from those of the general public. Millions of people recognize Picasso as not just a painter, but as a master artist. Similarly, millions of music lovers recognize the Greatful Dead as masters of music as an artform.

A technical skill set is but a basis for art. Many have mastered the brush stroke and the guitar neck, but only a small percentage of master technicians use their skill to create great art. I won't say that technique is irrelevant - that's simply not true - but the connection between skill and artistry is a loose one. One need not be highly skilled to create good art, nor does skill guarantee good art.

In the end, most people value art more than they value technique. Technique speaks to the brain, but not to the soul. Art speaks to the whole listener. That's why I like Jerry Garcia's steel playing.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
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Posted: **10 Oct 2005 8:58 am**

Bobby, that was brilliant.

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 9:34 am**

Why won't this dead horse stay on the ground? Too dumb to know it's dead maybe?

Funny thing, at the end of the last refrain of TYC (right after "and know they love you") Garcia played just ONE NOTE -- one simple, perfect, crystal clear and PERFECTLY IN TUNE note that speaks volumes more than just about any other note or combination of notes ever recorded anywhere. Regardless of whether this was beginner's luck or pure genius, he played it and it's recorded for all posterity to marvel at.

Now, if all the clever, wordy wannabe steel players out there who find their own personal worth enhanced by trashing a thoughtful and articulate dead guy -- who also happened to be a leader of the only band in history to carry a 200+ bed field hospital to EVERY SHOW for the exclusive benefit of their fans -- could figure out how to say half as much with one sweet word we would all have an infinitely better world to live in.

If those same "experts" all turned off their computers and concentrated on what the notes THEY were playing on the PSG meant we would have an infintely better sounding one as well.

If anbody needs me I'll be playing my guitar. [This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 11 October 2005 at 09:47 AM.]

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 9:50 am**

Wow Bobby Lee you said a mouth full.

In the end, most people value art more than they value technique. Technique speaks to the brain, but not to the soul. Art speaks to the whole listener.

That really should be engraved somewhere on the forum for all to see. Very well said!

Rick

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 10:44 am**

A fundamental flaw in this debate of technique vs. art is that it isn't one or the other. Technique is required in order for the art to take place. Garcia had technique on the steel, but it was probably derivative of his guitar-playing. It wasn't typical Nashville technique, but it was technique nonetheless. IMHO, it is difficult to copy EXACTLY what Garcia played on TYC because there is technique involved. Furthermore, to put down technique is to deny the fact that great technique is fundamental to the music created by Emmons, Franklin, Green, White, Jernigan, Rugg, Chalker. etc. etc. Without their incredible technique, they would probably have nothing to show for their inate abiltiies.

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Jeff's Jazz

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 11:11 am**

I've never posted in a "Garcia" thread before. I feel like a neophyte poster.

However, this thread has evolved to include a question of technique verses art. I believe both can exist together OR one without the other. The reason I feel this to be a true statement is as follows:

Art is communication of a creative idea or concept. Whether it's spoken, written, sculpted, painted, drawn, or in this case, played as music. Technique (in context to art) is a learned skill by which to execute the communication of an idea or concept. The success of art depends on how successful the intended idea or concept is communicated to an audience. This is a very subjective situation which has no real "measuring stick" accept in the artist's mind. The success of technique is based on the ability to execute predescribed parameters.

In the final analysis, great technique without art will still be great technique, but it won't be art. However, art without great technique will remain art. Together they can be sublime.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 10 October 2005 at 12:21 PM.]

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 12:03 pm**

Art is what sells. People bought most of what Garcia put out, whether it was TYC or neck ties. Therefore, it was art. Nuff said!

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 12:42 pm**

The only danger I see with "technique" is when the technique becomes an end in itself, as opposed to being a means to an end (the '80s eruption of super technical but soulless guitar shredders being a good example, IMO..).

Of course technique is important, after all it is the skill/tool one use to express one's emotions and personality, and create this thing called "art".

But sometimes art just 'happens' - often purely accidental - and the lack of a superior technique shouldn't be allowed to take anything away from it, that would make this world a poorer place, IMHO......

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 1:46 pm**

art without great technique will remain art

sometimes art just 'happens'

Two questions.

Assuming the works of Emmons, Franklin, Jernigan, Chalker, and Green are considered art, exactly how much of it does anyone on this thread think did not require superior technique?

Other than TYC, how many other great pedal steel works can you name in which the technique was not that great?

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Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 10 October 2005 at 02:47 PM.]

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 2:12 pm**

Other than TYC, how many other great pedal steel works can you name in which the technique was not that great?

Most of Pete Drake's hooks on country classics would fall into that category.

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 2:20 pm**

Other than TYC, how many other great pedal steel works can you name in which the technique was not that great?

Pretty much everything Marshall Tucker did would qualify too.

Rick
[This message was edited by Rick Garrett on 10 October 2005 at 03:22 PM.]

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 2:27 pm**

Bob Dylan once said that the most important thing in music is sincerity. He said that any listener can detect it, and that's what ultimately really moves us. Quite often that sincerity wins out over pure mechanics. Music is a language of emotion. But, of course, it takes at least some degree of ability to deliver the message. Ideally a great player has a good balance of sincerity and technique. But sincerity generally seems to win out for the majority of music listeners. There will always be the superjocks of any insrument, those who can impress the players and wow an audience with fireworks and acrobatics. But the music that moves the masses seems to encompass something much larger than technical virtuosity.

Back to Garcia. His path on the steel wasn't that long and his skills were not what most steel heads would call advanced, but what I've heard of his work was quite tasteful. Kind of sounds like someone who really dug Mooney and Brumley and JayDee Maness, but also played with a more trippy, ethereal, atmospheric edge. It was quite appropriate for the musical environment he played in.

This topic cracks me up every time it pops up. Took me 3 days to cave in. There are the many defenders of the greats who just can't accept that people enjoyed Garcia's steel playing. And then there are the many who do appreciate it and were maybe even turned on to steel because of Jerry's work with CSNY's TYC, the Dead, and maybe NRPS. What we can all agree on is that Jerry loved the instrument as much as many of us do.

Brad

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 4:10 pm**

Sho~Bud Rules!!!!!!!!!!

Oh sorry...wrong thread.

Posted: **10 Oct 2005 4:36 pm**

Sho~Bud Rules!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, Jerry Garcia.... well to keep this on topic, let me just say that I agree with much of what's being said here.

There.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 10 October 2005 at 06:02 PM.]