Informing another player of bad intonation

Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

Just to turn this around, my students have to learn how to be producers, so they have to cope with players with poor intonation.
So recently I played on a track where I considered that the only Steel should be on the intro and little end of line fills.
The student producers asked me to play right through the song.
So I played the intro and fills as well as I can manage, but in between I deliberately played nearly a semitone sharp.
Then I came over all superstar and declared that I did not need a second take (!)
Most of the mixes that came back only had the intro and fills on.
Everybody got a dressing down for not insisting on a second take and pointing out the errors, and the one who left the out-of-tune sections on the track got an F grade.
If it's out of tune, it's out of tune even when it's your teacher!
Cruel aren't I?

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Cheers!
Dave

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Kevin,

I am TOTALLY with you on this one. What kind of musician wouldn't want to hear some constructive criticism? One who had some pretty serious ego/insecurity issues, and who hadn't learned to separate themselves from their playing, that's who. When I started, a number of steel players gave me some great advice and I was ALWAYS glad to hear someone's criticism. I used to hear, "Man, you use the volume pedal too much," or "Try not playing on every section of the song". I am SO grateful to the players who cared enough to offer me some advice.

Intonation in my view is kind of like being pregnant, you either are, or you aren't in tune. I can see playing out of tune here and there, I mean the steel is really hard to play. But playing consistently out of tune would suggest to me that the player is just not listening, and make me wonder if there was really an "ear" for intonation there to begin with. After playing with a ton of different bands over the last five years, I am convinced that some people, bassists, vocalists, guitarists, fiddle players just don't hear things as finely grained as do others.

I think you would be doing the player a favor by mentioning it. If he tells you to get lost, then and he and his thin skin will reveal both his amateur-ness and a desire to remain an amatuer. Which is totally fine I guess, but just doesn't work for me. I have such a long way to go, any advice can only help, and after all you can always ignore it.

One last thing, Bob's intonation CD can make such a difference you won't believe your ears. When I play now, it's like the bar just knows where to go by itself.

[This message was edited by Gerald Menke on 24 March 2005 at 08:24 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · From: Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.

quote:
Everybody got a dressing down for not insisting on a second take and pointing out the errors, and the one who left the out-of-tune sections on the track got an F grade.
If it's out of tune, it's out of tune even when it's your teacher!
Cruel aren't I?

No, not cruel. Just professional.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Chuck Cusimano · From: Weatherford, Texas, USA

I guess for some reason I need to say this:

Many years ago, I was playing lead guitar on a session. I played a sharp bend, and after hearing it, I wanted a chance to go in and re-cut my solo, but the producer said it added "flair" to the solo. I can't stand to listen to that solo, because of the sharp note. I seem to remember we had been recording for several hours, and everyone was tired, and the producer was hungry, so the producer only had to hear it a few times while mixing, but that sharp note still haunts me.

To me, hearing a steel guitar even a little out of tune is just like hearing a fiddle a little out of tune. I think that it is the responsibility of the STEEL PLAYER/FIDDLE PLAYER to know when he/she is out of tune, and should be the FIRST one to know.

If someone is just starting out, they need to be told when they are out of tune (for whatever reason - maybe sometimes they don't know how to properly adjust the pedals) and if they have a problem with constructive criticisum, In my opinion, they
don't have any business trying to play such
a complex instrument.

Before a person ever BUYS a steel guitar, they should know that playing in tune and intonating correctly comes with the job description.

So, to sum it all up, record them, with or without their knowledge, and make them listen to it. Don't even mention the intonation thing. The ones that have what it takes to make great or even adequate steel players will hear it without having to be told. The ones who argue, or get mad need to play a fretted instrument, and more than likely will never go very far with their musical ventures.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Great, practical suggestion, Chuck. If you really care about this player as a person, offer to record their set (or just do it) and give them the recording as a gift. No need to say anything at all. If they don't hear themselves as being out of tune, you can't help them anyway, and can only hurt their feelings, by telling them they're out of tune. If they DO hear it, then it's up to them to ask you, or someone else, for assistance, to improve it.

By the way, my playing is more in-tune than ever since I got a Peterson strobe tuner. You could also rave about your tuner between sets. Maybe part of the problem is not having the guitar in tune in the first place, then struggling all night to play it. That's a different problem from having the axe in tune but not having an accurate left hand.

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 24 March 2005 at 10:46 AM.]

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

I would just as soon tell a guy his wife is having an affair..at least he would not be so offended.
Hook

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HookMoore.com
Allen Moore

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I said my piece early on in this thread, and resolved to just shut up after that, but I just can't help myself.

To those who argue the following: 1) You should tell a professional associate, or 2) You should tell a good friend; I argue in return that these are not the scenario Kevin presented. Almost everyone who considered those scenarios made a caveat that the professional/close-friend situation is different.

Even with a close friend, I still argue: "Why tell somebody about this if it is not likely to help, and may even hurt?" What is the purpose in giving this unsolicited advice? To help them or to make yourself feel better? I think most people serious about learning anything will ask for feedback. There's a difference between making oneself available for advice and gratuitously foisting such advice on someone you don't really know well enough to establish credibility. If you're an established mentor, your credibility is clear, and directly zinging someone with this kind of feedback may make sense. Otherwise, what's the point?

There's another issue here. The presumption is that only direct, brutally honest feedback can help. IMO, direct confrontation is not the only method to deal with this type of problem. Sometimes, even in a professional situation, when someone is not performing up to par, the best approach is to simply ask them very matter of factly to try some more takes in a way that does not blow their confidence.

This problem is not specific to musical production or even music in general, but to any situation where performance is expected - school, work, athletics, whatever. I teach for a living (computer science, math, engineering, not music, I don't have the patience for that), and there is a place for brutal honesty, but also a place for a less direct approach. Again, who are you trying to help here? The decision should be based on whether you think it will help them or not. If you don't know them well enough to assess this, this kind of brutal honesty is risky at best. IMO.

Hook, I'm with you! I just take more words to say it.

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

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HookMoore.com
Allen Moore

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