The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **5 Sep 2004 8:20 pm**

We've got a local station KBOO that does a GREAT Saturday country spot, followed by great bluegrass set until noon, and then if I'm not careful, I find myself sucked into the hour long mindless jams that only those that were there and "In the spirit" could appreciate. Some of them WERE pretty good, and they had a lot of balls in their song selection sometimes considering how "hep" they were supposed to be.

The Dead ALWAYS set up a WALL of 15 inch JBLs with no mesh covers, and it made for a near perfect concert setup.

I waited four long hours in 78 in Baltimore for them to set up, and it was kind of lost on my when I finally got in..

I liked Robt Hunter vocally I suppose with "Big Iron" and others, and JG's guitar to me was always mindless pentatonic noodling..

BUT

The steel parts he laid down on Teach Your Children, AND others were some of the most tasty tracks I can think of.

HOF?

Why not?

EJL

Posted: **5 Sep 2004 8:36 pm**

Eric

Robert Hunter was the writer. He didn't sing with the band-Bob Weir (Rhythym guitar) sang Big Iron, and most of the other country standards.

JB

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

Posted: **5 Sep 2004 9:16 pm**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:33 PM.]

Posted: **5 Sep 2004 11:06 pm**

wow!

This kind of thing just stuns me. It really does. How many hit tunes have you guys played on? I remember a similar thread several years ago where Toy Caldwell was raked through the coals for being out of tune etc etc etc etc etc. Unless i missed a memo somewhere the steel on "teach" ain't all that bad nor was Toy's work on the Marshall Tucker Band stuff. I'm still working on my first hit but haven't done it yet even with my extraordinary talent, how's it working out for y'all? They played and had success doing it, which is more than i can say for me and e1 else here , ain't that enough? Lighten up, leave em alone and go practice

PMS[This message was edited by Patrick Smith on 06 September 2004 at 12:09 AM.][This message was edited by Patrick Smith on 06 September 2004 at 12:10 AM.][This message was edited by Patrick Smith on 06 September 2004 at 12:12 AM.][This message was edited by b0b on 06 September 2004 at 11:04 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 12:03 am**

JB..

I stand corrected.

I was certainly in the spirit back when I heard them live...

I'm certainly as amicable to a shitstorm as any and more than most, but I still think JG was a major force at the time with his simple little tasty pedal steel licks.

If was just a bright, happy sounding little instrumental for chrissake.

That's what I wanted to hear. Not a nother note. No better blocking, not more in tune.

Looking back, that's what we ALL wanted to hear..

Maybe somebody else could have played it the same way.. but nobody stepped up at the time

I think he probably used the C6 neck to do other things with...

I grew up listening to TYC, and I remember hearing it a hell of a lot more than Sleepwalk.

"Old and in the Way. That's what I heard them say.

They used to heed the words he said, but that was yesterday..."

That's me at 51 I guess..

There just ain't no figgering some things.

EJL

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 7:32 am**

hmm... All these years I thought music was about spontaneous lyrical creation and being able to play (or compose) what you hear in your own style. Perfect technique, facility and complete virtuosity are rarely attained, nor are they required IMHO. Did lack of such stop Gershwin, Lennon and McCartney, Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Johnny Mercer, etc.? Was Curly a better technician than Buddy or vice-versa? Does it matter? No, the music they create(d)matters.
Anyway back to the topic... Was Jerry the Art Tatum of the steel or the guitar for that matter? Certainly not, but he did create lots of very good music in his life, good creative, stylistic, improvised solos on various instruments, and continues to influence multiple generations with the music he left us.

RIP Jerry, and may all the critics be so lucky that 10+- years after they are "Dead", they too are remembered.

Also, I find it quite ironic that Garcia's Teach Your Children solo seems to always get a bad rap here, because if I had to bet on which steel solo is the most widely recognized and has been played (at some point) by more budding and pro steelers than any other, this would be it. Have you?

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 9:27 am**

This is what I think also, I consider that recording of Teach to be one of the most important pieces of work on steel guitar. Why? Because its got to be the most played and recognized pieces of steel work ever done. It also makes you feel good inside when you hear it. It was done by a guy with limited technical ability, but tons of artistic and interpetive capability. I'll take artistic capability over technical ability anytime. Technical ability does not translate into listening pleasure. One note well placed is better than three poorly placed.[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 06 September 2004 at 10:28 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 06 September 2004 at 03:06 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 9:46 am**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 10:01 am**

Smith? ok fair enough

read again Phelps, I didn't say that everyone here was knocking him nor did i say that mentioning his so called limited technical skills was a knock but if you read these types of threads we seem to love to put down anybody, particularly those that come from the guitar player pool, who have the audacity to play our beloved instrument and God forbid actually have some commercial success. The guy played some pretty cool stuff with whatever level of skills the fine folks here hold him to, Toy Caldwell did the same, isn't that enough? I guess not for some but then again, i'll be patiently waiting for their next hits to scream up the charts as i'm sure it can't be long.

"Smith"

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 10:26 am**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 10:55 am**

Kevin said it well. I totally agree.

"Teach" was later released in a compilation with Crosby, Stills, Nash, Suzie Bogas, Kathy Mattia, and Allison Krauss.

The steel player was more skilled than Jerry (Paul Fanklin, I think) but IMO, it's just doesn't grab me like original.

Here's a small (106 KB) MP3 of the two intros side by side:
http://www.joeyace.com/audio/tycAB.mp3

UPDATE - Sept 9
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>" I just wanted to confirm that it was in fact Paul Franklin listed with the steel credit on the version of "Teach Your Children" done by Suzy Bogguss, Alison Krauss & Kathy Mattea (with Crosby, Stills and Nash).

It was on a 1994 Album called "Red Hot + Country--a benefit for AIDS educational relief"
http://www.redhot.org/projects/rhcountryindex.html

Cheers,

Lawrence Lupkin"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 08 September 2004 at 12:26 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 11:06 am**

I usually don't correct people's spelling, but the word is psychedelic. Maybe a simple misspelling is what caused the confusion.[This message was edited by b0b on 06 September 2004 at 12:06 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 11:09 am**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 11:15 am**

"It's your way of expressing yourself (e.g.: "Lighten up, leave em alone and go practice") that I don't like."

"If you look again, Smith"

ditto on that "way of expressing yourself" thingy

[This message was edited by b0b on 06 September 2004 at 11:06 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 11:45 am**

Also remember, that signature intro came out of Jerry's head. The session player thought it was strong enough to quote it, in a slightly differnt style.

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 12:13 pm**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:34 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 6:15 pm**

Eric

Didn't know if you were aware of this, but one of the most famous versions of "Old and In The Way" is a live recording with JOhn Kahn, Peter Rowan, Vasar Clements, David Grisman and on Banjo.....Jerry Garcia. It's a world class bluegrass album that really shows off Garcia's talent on the instrument.

JB

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Fessenden D-10 8&8
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

http://www.nrpsmusic.com/index.html

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 6:40 pm**

Still, I wonder if some of that may be because Jerry's version is what we've heard for so many years and it's familiar to us?

Being a lap steel player I usually don't stick my nose in your pedals, but let me comment on this one: I can't remember hearing any of these versions, and I preferred the first one, simply because of it's immediate rawness.
Just my two fingerpicks......

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 7:51 pm**

JB -

There's actually three Old and In The Way albums out. Great stuff if you are a Bluegrass fan.

On the liner notes from one of the albums is a story that when the group first formed, Vassar was not aware of Jerry's other group. They were pulling into San Francisco and Vassar looked up and saw a Dead billboard, turned to Jerry and sain "Hey Jerry, there's a guy up there who looks just like you."

Jerry was a well know and very respected banjo player. He credited his guitar techinque (hand position, etc.) to his years of playing banjo.

jdg

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MSA D-10 w/Nashville 400
'63 Gibson Hummingbird
16/15c Hammered Dulcimer

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 8:47 pm**

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 09:35 PM.]

Posted: **6 Sep 2004 11:38 pm**

I read somewhere that of the things he did on steel,Jerry`s favorite was a track on David Crosby`s album "If I Could Only Remember My Name". I have a feeling that the spacey sort of playing he did on things like "The Wheel" and the Paul Kantner "Blows against the Empire" album is where he would have taken the instrument had he continued on it. And like damn near everything else he did in those thousands of shows and recordings, it would have had soul,style and personality to burn. Just my 2 cents.

P.S. While we`re (suppost to be) on the subject of Jerry`s equipment, anybody know anything about those Dan Healey-moded Fender Twins that Cage used with the New Riders?
Did Garcia use those also?
Mark

Posted: **7 Sep 2004 1:43 am**

Joey your sample is great !

I didn't know this song before listening to the sample, and neither did my mother.
And we both prefered Jerry's playing.

It's obvious the other player is better (better use of the volume pedal, bar control...) but Jerry's playing sounds more soulful to my ears. And the last few notes are just divine.

Posted: **7 Sep 2004 4:14 am**

Thanks Victor.

You can hear more of Jerry's version at "Rebel and Ricky's" Tab site. http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/1970.html

Posted: **7 Sep 2004 7:25 am**

http://www.petegrant.com/garcia.html

Posted: **7 Sep 2004 9:30 am**

I guess it's Jerry's heart and soul and artistry that made me like him. He used the instrument to make original sounds of his own. His music was playing during a lot of the good times I remember. He seemed to be unassuming and loved to play. It is amazing how he could play banjo and steel with his middle finger missing.