The Steel Guitar Forum

Country music sales are only 6% of the market today(as stated by Billboard magazine).Still declining.Obviously the producers and players,promoters,writers or SOMEone is doing something diffrently than in the past when country had 21% of the market. Naturally it's not all the steel players fault doing the sessions,although I'm not ever hearing anything that makes me want to keep listening to a country station.
An oldie country station? Yep! Weldon with Connie Smith,Buddy with Ray,Jimmy Day with Charlie Walker,Hal with Loretta,Even Pete Drake was a icon compared to most of this playing on todays records. Seems like every record was a great steel guitar playoff! This is when country had the largest portion of the market! Get rid of the steel guitar and fiddle and see what happend? Duane, your right! That whinny first string pulling up from F# to G# at every lick makes me sick. This lick alone on every record coming out of this town is enough to set country music back 50 years! In my opinion-------I'm going to shut up. I,just like everyone I talk to, is ready for a refreshing change in county music. Tommy White could be the correct step in the right direction.He plays with great taste,Original licks,very dominant,and not trying to be and old rehashed somone or other from a time gone by, rather,a dynamic great new comercial , punchem' in the nose steel player!!!! He may be very instrumental in saving, or helping to save "OUR" country music. Just as Big "E" did in days gone by. And still could do if he wanted to! Anyway Tommy White, you got the ball, we are all watching and waiting!----
Silas Humphammer

My God this is depressing.But the up side is, it could save you money.Think about it.Why should (we) guys,the ones who only want to hear the old stuff, go out and spend 3 grand+ for a new PSG? It's all in the hands anyway, and chances are the sounds we like best where done on an old PP or Sho~Bud or maybe MSA.
I understand Bobbe's doing a new CD.I think he wrote he was going to use his old PP and maybe a Fender Twin to capture the sound of that era.Not a Legrande II and Nashville 1000.Thinking about it,I can't disagree.
So maybe we should save our money for the kids,or grand-kids education?Buy the wife something nice?If it's the old sounds your into? Chances are you already own equipment that will get closer to the sound in your head than the newer equipment will.Then again maybe not.The new Country stinks,the old Country's dead.Soo,save your money?Take up guitar or drums? Change the world?? Or maybe change with it?

Hummmmmm, Huh? maybe soooo, hummm,goodness,save my money? What money? I think you have something there . You know , this may apply to a lot of things,Old Cars!Iv'e been doing this for years,old Martin flat tops, Telecasters,Les Pauls (there's that word again) antiques of all kinds.I love some old amps, Standell tube type,Polytone,Fender Twins,Old tube Evans amps,All Sho-Bud amps! Did I get the correct drift? I think the Boggs man has it figured out also!!Yep, Back to the future,the wise have found it.Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better, does it? Or does it? Not always.
I love the '32 ford,the '66 Mustang,the '64 AC Cobra,The '66 Emmons, the '72 model girl next door,(great bumpers).New cars? Some are OK I 'spose. Still love my old Cobra better.
Where'd you think the Cobra Coil string name came from? Yep Bobby, I really have to agree with you, darn,I love Hal Rugg, look how old he is!(his great playing and personality anyway).
I love getting in on the very end of these posts, everyone is already worn out and ignore everything I say!
By By !

Bobby said, Just buy something nice for the wife,I think I'll just buy a nice wife.
A guy came in my store last week and said" I'd like to get a nice guitar for my wife" My brilliant reply was,"sounds like a good trade to me, let me see your wife!"

Forget playing steel.I wanna Music store.
I know Bobbe didn't make his money selling PSG's.I think he said he made it off an album he hated.Hum,wonder if all the top session players love every album they played on that sold millions?? ------bb<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 14 November 2001 at 11:33 PM.]</p></FONT>

To clarify a few things.I'm not opposed to Tommy White leading us into the future.In fact when asked on this very forum,Who would you play like if you could?I stated Tommy White.
I still love (real country music.)but I was just reading a post by Ricky Davis where he stated."Theres no money in real country music,never has been never will be."I also read a post by Herb Steiner where he mentioned that Jim Loessberg was playing drums,Rick Price,bass I think.I couldn't help but think what's next? Randy Reinhart driving the bus?This was with Johnny Bush's band,and in Texas no less.
As I stated, I too love (Real country music) I just don't see much of a future there.Hope I'm wrong.
To Donnie Hinson,can you give me an example of one modern country song that has Chalker's 70's E9 tone?George Striat's(I want to dance with you) being the exception.I loved Chalker.Big Hits on Big Steel still blows me away.Maybe we're not listing to the same stations.But the guys I'm hearing Sonny,Paul,Tommy,and Mike Johnson have a tone nothing like Chalker.I love Chalker's playing. I just never cared for his (E9) country tone.Not to say it wasn't good.There where just others I liked a lot better. ----------bb<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 15 November 2001 at 08:33 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bobby, there are some real good examples on Stan Hitchcock's album "Dixie Belle". If you've never heard it, I'll send you a tape!

No Donnie I haven't.I've only heard Curley's E9 tone on the Gordon Lightfoot LP.I remember Long Black Limousine from More Ways to Play and of course his Hee Haw days.Thanks for the kind offer.The forum kinda frowns on the making copies thing.But I would love to hear it. Thanks-----bb

One other thing.The remarks about not buying equipment and saving your money was of course tongue in cheek. I say buy till you find exactly what you want then buy some more. Life's to long to be short of equipment. -----bb

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>I think if we get stuck in the rut that all steel guitar has to be the traditional ballad sound (whiny,sad etc [which I happen to love too!])we are not gonna be able to promote our intrument.
</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't get this. Apparently most of the "New Country" (or "New Steel", whatever) supporters claim to "love" the traditional steel sounds, but in the next breath imply it's too old-fashioned to cut it in today's "market".

Why? Are all steel players genetically pre-disposed to appreciate "traditional" steel while other musicians or non-musicians aren't?

I don't think the problem is so much with unimaginative steel playing as it is with the songs themselves. I mean, what steel riffs would YOU play to "This Kiss"?? Do you even WANT to play steel in songs like that? Now put on "Chiseled in Stone" and sit down at your guitar....kinda makes you proud to be a steel player, eh?

I may be over-simplyfing, but you get the point.

Another factor (besides moronic producers, I guess ) which no one has mentioned is the negative impact television has had on "traditional" country. With very few exceptions, the "new" country stations play the same artists seen on the CMT videos etc. - i.e "pretty faces". Talent preferred but not required.

O.K I've rambled enough...Watered down lyrics, tight cleavage shots, and the infamous F# - G# pull......I know it's enought to make me want to put on some Merle and go back to my "rut" of sliding on 3 and 5!!

(Although I have nothing against tight cleavage shots per se )

Good post Scott!!!

Duane,
Looks like you pulled a lot of chains. I agree with you 100%. I don't think the problem is as much the sound of the steel as it is the total sound produced. There are too many instruments playing at once and it is all dominated by distortion guitar and thunder drums. Add the fact that all male singers are Garth Brooks clones and most female singers are screamers (a la Martina M.), It all makes for pretty rotten listening compared to the older stuff. I shouldn't pick on old Garth I guess. He has enough to contend with being ugly, fat, without vocal talent, and dumped by his wife.

Jerry Johnston

Started with no talent---still have most of it.

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I really love this place...kind of a refuge for aricept deficient aging males to vent. I am amazed at the continuing personal vendettas that run through forum posts and saddened that this is used to run down some folks who are really class players. I guess eveyone can't be as talented as Paul Franklin, Mike Johnson, Bruce Bouton, and Sonny Garrish. These are the four players you folks are throwing all the mud at. I buy and listen to virtually all of the new country music. I hear a pile of great steel work that is imaginative and tastefully done.
As much as I love Ray Price shuffles, it and it's genre of "three chords in four-four time" was overly simplistic when compared to modern music. Quite frankly, the late fifties and sixties were, with few exceptions, not exactly a wonderful period for quality country music. About the only place you find folks waxing rhapsodically for this stuff is the SGF and every smoky little VFW and Elks lodge.
The saddest part of this whole continuing saga, is people stuck in a time warp. People bitch and moan about the lack of new steel players. Until steel guitarists move out of the past, young people will continue to be turned off.
Lemmee see here.... Here is a short list of "newer" material my band is doing. All of it has great steel parts.

WWW. Memory
We danced
Bitter End
Love of my life
I just want to dance with you
Write this Down
My Home Town
You Ain't the Best
Just Playin Possum

and on..........
The really funny part is this: Thirty years from now, there will be a grizzled bunch of old farts whining about the"new country" and pining for the good old days...you know...the golden age of steel, the Franklin/Bouton/Garrish/Johnson years.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 19 November 2001 at 12:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

This thread is now 3 pages long and I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen anyone “throwing mud” at Paul Franklin, Bruce Bouton, etc all. What most of us “stuck in the past”ers are complaining about is the state of “Country” music in general, not the session steel players of today.

Personally, I couldn’t give a hoot how many “young people” are turned off by “non-contemporary” steel. And I’ve certainly never moaned over the lack of new steel players (who needs the competition ), nor do I begrudge anyone who wants to "branch out" on steel – go for it! But those of us steelers who still yearn to play the more traditional style of country music that hits you at the gut level are getting tired of hearing, from a few here, to in essence “move forward or get out of the way”. That’s just plain crap. (But then again, I’m just a 43 year "old fart" stuck in a time warp)!

<SMALL>As much as I love Ray Price shuffles, it and it's genre of "three chords in four-four time" was overly simplistic when compared to modern music. </SMALL>

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Does increasing the number of chords/chord changes in a song automatically make it better?? If Ray Price were starting off today, I wonder if Sonny Garrish would refuse a session because the progressions weren’t challenging? (Of course, we know this is a hypothetical because Ray Price probably wouldn’t have a chance of making it today)!

My biggest gripe with new “Country” (among a host of others already repeated by many here) is that there’s no soul or emotion to the music. I think that’s why this is such a hot topic here, because steel is (or should be) primarily a soulful and emotional instrument. So, ultimately, a Paul Franklin can make a bad song better, and a pretty good song better still, but all the speed, taste and ingenuity of the best steel players can’t make these songs “greats” or “classics”. It just won’t happen in today’s Nashville.

In my three years or more on the Forum, I've probably seen more ink (or is that electrons?) thrown at this topic than any other. 99.44% of the discussion has been belly-aching about the sad state of country music and how most of it, including the steel parts, is less than memorable.

As far as I can surmise, three years later, the status quo has not changed. What should we DO about it?????

I can almost guarantee you that not ONE single person who makes the decisions about what music is published, recorded, or performed ever reads our inane ramblings. Only exception may be Boomer and one or two others and I haven't seen him posting lately. We're like a bunch of old cows, chewing on our own vomit.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>
God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What have we accomplished toward changing this situation? With the effort that's been put into it, SOMETHING should have changed by now if we were doing ANYTHING right.

?????????

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Larry -

Your right, of course, this has been beaten to death, and I'll plead guilty to my fair share of belly-achin!

What can be done? Good question. For me, a complete amateur and unknown even in my own state, not much I guess. Right now I'm trying to get a band together with a lead singer/guitar player who I used to play a little with (he moved away and is now back). We both love the "old country" so if this pans out, that's what we'll be playing.

What I guess this means is:
1) We'll be turned down frequently because we don't play "new" country, but
2)Those jobs we do get, hopefully we'll expose a few neophyte listeners to the old style and it will grab them, if we do a decent enough job!!

Otherwise, I don't know...blare my George Jones tapes in the car at top volume with the windows down?

Thanks for your insight Scott. I went back and reread every single post. A lot of the thread is bemoaning the dearth of traditional country. However, several folks, including yourself, single out the actual steel parts being played. I believe you bring up the "infamous pull" yourself. Perhaps you don't mean to come off as insulting to Franklin, but if I were Paul reading it, I'd be offended. Several folks beat this into the ground, in what appears to me, to be a somewhat mean spirited continuation of a kind of running feud.
Your attitude is part of what what turns young folks off...of course you go to great pains to make it clear that you don't really care how many potential young steelers you alienate. I can only assume that you really don't mean it quite the way it comes off.

I did not say that complexity automatically makes a song better. I did state that three chord shuffles were simplistic when compared to a more modern genre. I did not say I didn't like them. Heck, my two favorite jobs in the last two years were opening for Ray Price. I love this stuff as well as anyone. My problem is people who are so closed minded that they miss some new and exciting steel playing. Hell, check out the totally over the top playing by Garrish on Chesney's "She's Got it All". How about Franklins wonderful work on Jacksons CD's.
Today, In my CD changer today I've got Georges new CD, Daryl Dodd, Charley Prides Greatest Hits, Brad Paisleys Part II, Pat Green and Cory Morrow, and Diamond Rio.

There is great music on all of these with wonderful steel parts. Of course, there is no steel work on Diamond Rios CD, but their gorgeous arrangements and superbly penned songs make up for it. I've been listening to Garths new CD "Scarecrow" for the last two days as well. Certainly not traditional country, but beautifully written, arranged, and performed tunes....and yes, Bruce Bouton adds a steel part or two. Ok, all of you Garth haters...let me have it.

Life is about change...it's ok to like the old stuff. Just don't automatically damn everything coming out of Nashvegas because it's not Faron, or Ray or Johnny...etc.

and btw....I'm fifty.



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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Steve, not a bad post for an old timer. I know several young guys that play great.A couple now live and work in Nashville.They no longer visit here because they don't feel welcome.A young, or unknown guy can mention a song,or lick that was done using some modern change. And folks will assume that's all they know.They never take the time to find out these guys can smoke the old stuff too. --bb <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 20 November 2001 at 02:19 PM.]</p></FONT>

Yeah, BB
We really know how to make friends and influence people, don't we?????

LTB

........"A young, or unknown guy can mention a song,or lick that was done using some modern change. And folks will assume that's all they know.They never take the time to find out these guys can smoke the old stuff too. --bb"......

I think that what's missing here is that a lot of the "old guys" can also "smoke the new stuff"! www.genejones.com

Steve,

You're a braver man than I.....

I'm sure there were a lot of folks moaning about the state of country music back in the late 50s when these young country players like Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day started revolutionizing the instrument.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Gene.
A lot of the (old) guys can smoke the new commercial stuff.But these guys smoke things like PF's solo on Brent Masons (Pick it Apart),PF's verison of (Donna Lee),Spain, and PF's Christmas album,etc.They don't just play at these tunes. They nail them to the wall.The phrasing,speed,tone etc.But if Franklin's not you're cup of tea,you might like their Emmons tunes, or whoever they choose to copy.

In short these guys play anything.Old country,New country,REAL jazz,blues,and of course they can rock n roll.If either guy has a weakness it's that they haven't yet developed their on styles.But both are only in their early 20's.Maybe there's hope for them yet? <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 20 November 2001 at 08:39 PM.]</p></FONT>

Bobby,
Which one is in his 20s???????

LTB