The Steel Guitar Forum

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Hello Johnny and Bob,

Could you help proof-read this chart, and make sure I don't have any errors before I send it to MSA?

That looks real good to me, Darren

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Hello Johnny and Bob,

Could you help proof-read this chart, and make sure I don't have any errors before I send it to MSA?

Looks good. Remember P5, string 11 tunes to Bb with RKR engaged.

Johnny Cox wrote:Looks good. Remember P5, string 11 tunes to Bb with RKR engaged.

I thought it tuned to G# with RKR engaged.

Yes, please clarify if I have P5 wrong.

On my chart is P4 considered a "Franklin" pedal?

On LKV, should I have only one Ab on string 6, or two A-flats on strings 6 & 11?

Also, I noticed my P8 is different from a standard C6. Is this wrong, or is there a combination I'm not yet seeing? For example compare my P8 with B0B's P7 here.

For instance LKL & P8 is similar, but what is the Eb for with that combo? I've never played C6, so I'm not sure how P8 is used.

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Yes, please clarify if I have P5 wrong.

Your P5 is correct. It raises the open string A to Bb, but is tuned with RKR engaged. So, it's actually raising G to G#, creating an E9th chord.

Darren Mortillaro wrote:On my chart is P4 considered a "Franklin" pedal?

Sort of. It's the part of a Franklin pedal that you don't already have on your right knee levers.

Darren Mortillaro wrote:On LKV, should I have only one Ab on string 6, or two A-flats on strings 6 & 11?

I'd keep them both if possible. Use split tuning on them with P1 to get a Bb note for a Gm chord with pedals down. This is the "standard E9th" LKV.

Darren Mortillaro wrote:Also, I noticed my P8 is different from a standard C6. Is this wrong, or is there a combination I'm not yet seeing? For example compare my P8 with B0B's P7 here.

For instance LKL & P8 is similar, but what is the Eb for with that combo? I've never played C6, so I'm not sure how P8 is used.

It's used with RKR. It's easier to understand in sharps as a B7#9 chord: B F# B D# F# A B D. (1 5 1 3 5 b7 1 #9) I see that you've put the Eb (D#) on string 8 instead of string 9. Not a bad idea - you have to skip a string either way.

I really enjoy this thread. I've always been an experimenter when it comes to tunings and pedal setups. For those of you that want a basic Emmons 8x5 style setup on a single tuning then that is laid out in previous charts.
I have had up to 10 pedals and 10 knees on guitars throughout my career. In the past 20 years or so it's been more like 8 or 9 pedals and 8 or 9 knees on double neck guitars. This D13th tuning came out of my frustration with the normal universal tunings and my desire to get it all in one tuning and thinking in only one tuning or key. I started about 2004 or 2005 with a S12 with an E13th similar to this but with the G# as the 1st string F#,Eb,E,C#,B,G#,F#,E,D,B,E. This was based on Tom Morrell's 10 string E13th.
That didn't pan out but about 3 years ago I started experimenting with it again in my current string arrangement only in E. I thought the C6th type stuff was too high in pitch so I tuned it to D13th. To me it's a perfect middle ground between E and C.
Then came the pedal arrangement. My goal was to get all my normal changes on fewer pedals and knee levers. It took the past couple years of trial and error to arrive at this setup. This is the most complete pedal arrangement I have figured out. It has all of my normal E9th changes as well as the changes I had when playing Curly Chalker's tuning and setup. I also have the equivalent of the C6th D on top and in the middle and an A on bottom. A couple Reece Anderson type changes as well as standard C6th pedals even though you don't immediately see them on the chart. This is what is now on my guitar and I can't find anything missing from all the things I've had in the past.

Fasinating mindset. Ive studied this D13th and b0bs D6th tuning in the last few days.

So, I've got a question to those to understand this far better than I.

What do you guys think about this tuning, matching Copedents being placed on a 10 string guitar (sans the lower 2 strings), and a 12 string as written? This would be done to allow the 10 string to be a lightweight travel guitar.

I considered dropping the middle string additions, but I would want both guitars to have the same string order.

Would I lose too much without those lower strings?

I'm enjoying the E9th/B6th universal I have on 10 strings, but like Johnny want to truely see a single tuning.

Looking at this further this morning, perhaps the correct answer is dropping the top chromatic string, and the bottom D on the 10 string guitar.

Still an interesting tuning, and I'm still trying to fully understand that 5th string B.

You can get the string 2 notes on the middle B string. I've been doing that for years on my D6th. My B has a half-stop raise lever: B > C > C#. It's like the opposite of an E9th 2nd string.

I don't like playing without that 9th tone (E) on the 1st string. It's just so useful - more so than the 2nd string in my opinion.

Losing the 11th string would be a mistake, in my opinion.

This tuning already loses 8 strings an, entire neck and at least 4 pedals. If anymore strings are removed you just end up with an extended D9th.

b0b, and Johnny,

Thank you for the feedback on the matter.

This has been my favorite thread in a long time. I switched to this tuning in fall 2019 and Johnny was kind enough to spend some time with me at the 2020 Dallas show giving me a short demo and offering copedent advice. Thank You Johnny.

My first pedal steel was a double neck and I found I didn't warm up to it all. When I heard about the Newman U12 setup, I was sold. It just made so much musical sense to my brain (often a peculiar one I'll admit). It didn't hurt that two of my PSG Idols were Reece Anderson and Junior Knight, though I played E9/B6 not Bb6/Eb9. Upon playing it for more than 20 years the uni still felt like 2 necks compressed into one and rather than a true universal tuning. Honestly, B is not my favorite open tuning.

I put basically the Emmons D13 that b0b posted with a few alterations. I like Johnny's use of the 2nd string C and I use RKR to raise and RKL to lower it. I also added a B to C raise on the A pedal as mentioned by Earnest Bovine. I initially used it to train my fingers to pick the correct string because I couldn't tell if I was hitting string 4 or 5 with the A pedal down. Then I found that I liked it for the AB pedal sus4 and it really helps with the 1st inversion C that Buddy likes to end his Basic C6 exercises. I know those can be found on the 2nd string, but that is a stretchy grip for me. It is easy to back off the tuning nut to get the unison.

I have only put this on my GFI Ultra which has been fun because it is really easy to setup and change but has drawbacks like no split screws and limited changer positions but it has worked well enough. Now I plan to put it on my MSA Millennium 9/5 which should be a better fit.

I am committed to the D13 and watching the copedent mature through this thread has been a joy. It feels much more like a true universal tuning rather that a double neck compromise. Additionally, it is simply a kick-butt D13 non-pedal tuning. I want to thank Johnny and b0b in particular along with everyone else for this in depth analysis and evolution of what I sincerely hope will be a model for future universal copedents.

I know this is a too-long post but one more aside. I had attempted to develop a D13 sweetener for my Peterson tuner and it was OK. Then I found bOb's D6 meantone sweetener on the Peterson site. It took a bit of getting used to but I think it sounds much sweeter than what I had. It is a good place to start if you aren't an ear master and want to try D13 out.

Thanks again everyone for participating in such a great topic.

Jamie Howze wrote:This has been my favorite thread in a long time. I switched to this tuning in fall 2019 and Johnny was kind enough to spend some time with me at the 2020 Dallas show giving me a short demo and offering copedent advice. Thank You Johnny.

My first pedal steel was a double neck and I found I didn't warm up to it all. When I heard about the Newman U12 setup, I was sold. It just made so much musical sense to my brain (often a peculiar one I'll admit). It didn't hurt that two of my PSG Idols were Reece Anderson and Junior Knight, though I played E9/B6 not Bb6/Eb9. Upon playing it for more than 20 years the uni still felt like 2 necks compressed into one and rather than a true universal tuning. Honestly, B is not my favorite open tuning.

I put basically the Emmons D13 that b0b posted with a few alterations. I like Johnny's use of the 2nd string C and I use RKR to raise and RKL to lower it. I also added a B to C raise on the A pedal as mentioned by Earnest Bovine. I initially used it to train my fingers to pick the correct string because I couldn't tell if I was hitting string 4 or 5 with the A pedal down. Then I found that I liked it for the AB pedal sus4 and it really helps with the 1st inversion C that Buddy likes to end his Basic C6 exercises. I know those can be found on the 2nd string, but that is a stretchy grip for me. It is easy to back off the tuning nut to get the unison.

I have only put this on my GFI Ultra which has been fun because it is really easy to setup and change but has drawbacks like no split screws and limited changer positions but it has worked well enough. Now I plan to put it on my MSA Millennium 9/5 which should be a better fit.

I am committed to the D13 and watching the copedent mature through this thread has been a joy. It feels much more like a true universal tuning rather that a double neck compromise. Additionally, it is simply a kick-butt D13 non-pedal tuning. I want to thank Johnny and b0b in particular along with everyone else for this in depth analysis and evolution of what I sincerely hope will be a model for future universal copedents.

I know this is a too-long post but one more aside. I had attempted to develop a D13 sweetener for my Peterson tuner and it was OK. Then I found bOb's D6 meantone sweetener on the Peterson site. It took a bit of getting used to but I think it sounds much sweeter than what I had. It is a good place to start if you aren't an ear master and want to try D13 out.

Thanks again everyone for participating in such a great topic.

I'm really happy that you are using this tuning. As with E9th and C6th the pedals can be set up to suit the player. My intent is for guys to see that there is a valid alternative to the other universal tunings that all are a compromise. Enjoy and if can ever help just holler.

I like the idea of a D13 universal tuning but there needs to be learning material available for it to become more than a niche tuning.

Hey Johnny, I'm looking at ordering new guitar and pretty keen on giving this copedent a go. It's pretty close to my current copedent, really just adding the C# string 2 and the D string 12 and a bunch of extra pedals/levers. I like the idea of the split you mentioned to D# (f-lever equivalent) with the E raise and Db lower. I noticed in the last copedent idea you posted that you've moved away from it, wondering if you had issues playing that setup, or if you just moved to something more concise for you.

This is where I'm at so far:



I use the 5th string C# regularly against the A and D string in my current copedent, so I'm considering just asking to put that that on a second RKR lever. That'd feel pretty familiar as my current RKR ONLY has B -> C# on it.

Paul Strojan wrote:I like the idea of a D13 universal tuning but there needs to be learning material available for it to become more than a niche tuning.

Not that I see D13 Universal ever not being niche, but I'm a newer player and my current guitar is basically just the standard E9 3x4 setup but down a whole step to D and an extra string between strings 4 and 5. It'd be nice, but I'm not convinced any D13 specific learning material is needed. Anything I learn on E9 I can play 2 frets higher and skip a string, and anything I learn on C6 I can play 2 frets lower and skip a different string.

Lee Gauthier wrote:Hey Johnny, I'm looking at ordering new guitar and pretty keen on giving this copedent a go. It's pretty close to my current copedent, really just adding the C# string 2 and the D string 12 and a bunch of extra pedals/levers. I like the idea of the split you mentioned to D# (f-lever equivalent) with the E raise and Db lower. I noticed in the last copedent idea you posted that you've moved away from it, wondering if you had issues playing that setup, or if you just moved to something more concise for you.

This is where I'm at so far:



I use the 5th string C# regularly against the A and D string in my current copedent, so I'm considering just asking to put that that on a second RKR lever. That'd feel pretty familiar as my current RKR ONLY has B -> C# on it.

I moved away from it because all guitars might not handle those splits and be in tune in all the moves. For example if you raise the D a whole tone and then lower to the D# split you can tune it that way. But if you lower it and raise to the D# split it sometimes will be sharp.
As to teaching material all E9th and C6th materials will apply it's just remembering the RKR and the key.

Will some guitars handle that split or is that something more related to splits in general? My current guitar has no splits so this is a whole new world to me. I do understand there are two ways to get a split, either with a set screw or adding an extra rod, but I don't know the pros and cons of each approach.

My other question is if my P4 idea seems silly or if I should just ask for an extra lever to get the C# change by itself.

Lee:

What did you decide re: your proposed Pedal 4?

What was your thinking when lowering the A to G?

Hey Roger, This is the copedent I landed on:



The A to G lower is a 1/2 PF pedal when thinking in E9 mode.

In C6 mode it plays nicely with my P5 as a melodic embellishment. If you think with the string 10 C as the root, P4 + P5 gives you nearly a full octave diatonic scale on adjacent strings. I believe Maurice Anderson also used the 5th down to 4th change on the 6th side of his universal copedents.

So far the only change I've considered with this copedent would be to switch LKVR and P4, but there are trade offs to both. I think as is my copedent is a bit easier for 9th style playing and swapping the pedal and lever would be a bit better for 6th style playing.

Many thanks for sharing that, Lee. I can't quite make it fill the screen on my phone so will study it more fully once I get home.

I will have to lower the As to Ab on my RKL as I do now. I dislike verticals and that change is a big one for me.

Lots of good ideas there - thanks for responding.

Ah, A -> Ab on RKL could work great if you also added the D -> E raise on 12. I like to use A -> Ab with my RKR, but mainly to get the Low E. Gives me some ideas to make my setup a bit more ergonomic, but I'm not sure I'd like my Db lower and D# raise on the same knee.

Having that in one knee is all I've ever known.

If I tackle this tuning, I want things to be as familiar as possible. Skipping that 5th string when necessary, not to mention learning grips on 12 strings rather than 10.

It's an exciting prospect.

Funnily enough I think it was the string 12 messed me up more than string 5. If you play C6 it's the same grips on top, but that extra low string threw me off and I kept grabbing C E F# instead of D F# A for the first week or so.

Of all the variations I've tried with this tuning this one has proven to be the best. Not as many splits needed to get all the same stuff. There are things I'm finding on this tuning and setup that I never played on E9th or C6th. Ive tried several other variations and keep coming back to this. It truly is all here and more.
One side note: for guys that are concerned with lowering both Ds and how that effects the C6th style things I have a solution.
I use split tuning much like is used on an E9th string 2 & 9 for half stops. The difference is I set it up so the 4th string (D)is already to Db before the 9th string (D) ever starts to lower.I stop the 4th string from going past the desired Db with the split tuning screw. I use the 9th string nylon tuner to adjust the feel stop to contact just as the 9th string starts to lower the use the 9th string split tuning screw to tune the 9th string lower. It works great when you only want to lower the 4th string. Another thing is that I believe using the Day split puts everything in a much more ergonomic place. What is most folks P8 is in the 5th pedal position. I've been doing this for years. I got it from Curly Chalker and Jimmy Day. And it's used for lots more than the baa-rumm or boo-wa links. Also by lowering the 8th string E to Eb instead of raising the 9th to Eb it allows for those big fat Chalker style minor 7ths in the low end just by moving back one string. I have played E9/B6th and Bb6th universal tunings in the past but there were always elementsmissing. On E9/B6 there are only basic changes like a D10 with 7x3 or 4. On Bb6th so much E9th stuff is not there unless heavily modified. This is the only truly "Universal Tuning" I've found.
It pleases me so much that some of you are interested in using my tuning and some variation of my setup. Thank you. If can ever be of any help let me know.