The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 12:40 pm**

Doug said it better, and at the same time![This message was edited by John McGann on 14 December 2006 at 12:42 PM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 12:19 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 12:40 pm**

The original question was about Eb and D#... IN AN E9 TUNING CHART. The poster asked "Are they the same?"

He noticed that some reference books listed that knee lever change as Eb and others listed it as D#. I maintain that D# is correct in this case because our open tuning is E9.

IF you play this note as an individual note, in no context, call it Eb or call it D#.

IF you list it in a tuning chart for the E9 tuning, it should be listed as D#. The context should determine the name of the note. It’s as simple as that!

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My Site - Instruction [This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 14 December 2006 at 12:44 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 12:47 pm**

Music like electronics is a theory,not an exact science.A tuner could be programed to read any thing.It is only a frequency counter.If any one (ham radio ops,etc) have a frequency counter check your E flat and D sharp notes.They will read the same cycles per second.
Do the same with G sharp and A flat etc.They will also read the same.
Wonder if any are not aware what 440 means.For those who may not, thats the amount of cycles the string is vibrating per second.
It means nothing,but as a kid i first started on piano then took up violin (fiddle) before steel.I learned to read music which the old saying goes,it didn't seem to hurt my plaing any.
So as some one said,just play the thing and don't let theory get in your way.Hope this is some help to the ones just starting out. [This message was edited by Tracy Sheehan on 14 December 2006 at 12:52 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 12:53 pm**

shoulda minded my own bidniz[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 01:13 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 1:02 pm**

John.Please feel free to point out where i am wrong.And yes of course i know theory.And where did i say you didn't neet to learn it.
Only trying to tell beginners to not get thier heads too cluttered up as i never knew any one in all my 50 years of playing who played steel by reading music.
And to make it more simple for you John,if a string needs lowering it,lower it.If it needs raising step on a pedal.Sorry if my post went over your head..[This message was edited by Tracy Sheehan on 14 December 2006 at 01:12 PM.] [This message was edited by Tracy Sheehan on 14 December 2006 at 01:18 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 1:15 pm**

I completely concur with Doug B and John Mc....

however as food for thought,where is the E to E# lever? In an E9 tuning, raising the root E a semitone to make the 3rd of a VI or VI7 chord, makes an E#, not an F.

Michael

[This message was edited by Michael Dene on 14 December 2006 at 01:18 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 1:17 pm**

§[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 12:21 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 1:29 pm**

John.Suppose i put it wrong.To put it another way,ther waws a time we did not have electronic tuners.lol
Had a pitch pipe or tuning fork.
All i was trying to say,too many are trying to make it too complicated.
Sorry to say,but one has to have an ear for music to play any un fretted instrument.Good luck.None of learned to play in a day.
BTY You are correct John.It is called hertz.Back when i started learning electronics it was called cycles.Same thing.[This message was edited by Tracy Sheehan on 14 December 2006 at 01:33 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 1:58 pm**

just fuggetaboudit

[This message was edited by John McGann on 14 December 2006 at 02:00 PM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 12:22 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 2:12 pm**

[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 14 December 2006 at 04:00 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 2:36 pm**

Hmmm, thats 84 replies here.

plus 20 here http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/014003.html

plus 10 here http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/014048.html
It seems to me that almost everyone here knows music theory in some fashion, Mine backslid abit cause I learned as a kid and forgot but it comes right back easy.
If I didnt with my age and fingers I wouldnt have a chance but a guitar is a guitar,the chords and positions are the same, we just get to them in a different fashion,

one thing for sure, if we want to get something going on here, just mention # VS b....heee-hee

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 3:46 pm**

however as food for thought,where is the E to E# lever? In an E9 tuning, raising the root E a semitone to make the 3rd of a VI or VI7 chord, makes an E#, not an F.

Only the most die-hard musical theorist would agree.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 
[This message was edited by b0b on 14 December 2006 at 03:47 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 4:02 pm**

I don't see anybody arguing in favor of calling the note one-half-step lower than E an Eb if the context is in an E major scale. But as I and others have said, one can play the open or raised/lowered notes in the E9 tuning in the context of playing in a key besides E. To me, the tuning has nothing to do with a key signature. It's just that - a tuning - the way the strings are tuned. If strummed open, it happens that it can be viewed as a particular type of E chord. But even if is played as an E chord, that does not set the key signature unless you say "OK, we're talking about the key of E." But it's clear that one can play the notes of an E chord while playing in a different key.

Now, if someone wants to analyze a copedent in terms of the function of the raises and lowers in the context of the key of E, great - now you need to follow the convention of naming notes in the key of E. But I've seen instruction that analyzes raises and lowers in terms of a different key than the tuning's home key. Doug Jernigan's C6 instruction comes to mind. I don't have it in front of me, but my recollection is that he specifically analyzes the effect of certain pedal and lever changes in different keys than C.

I'll tell you what I think I and others are reacting to here. It's these types of statements:

The naming conventions may differ, but the truth is the truth regardless of what you call it.

The "truth" may be the "truth" - but what you call it depends on the naming convention. That's what we're arguing about here - yikes, all 86 posts - whether to call a particular note Eb or D#.

Most of my posts here (and many others as well) have been talking about how you look at notes in context of the key of the moment, or the chord of the moment. There are right and wrong ways of looking at these.

If you want to set a convention that we all should insist that the open chord in a tuning should always set the key in which to analyze pedal and lever changes, fine. Then, by your definition, anything else is "wrong". But I don't think this is a "generally accepted" naming convention, nor do I get a sense that everyone is going to accept this now.

Last point: I emphatically do not argue that music theory is irrelevant at all here. I totally agree that it's useful to analyze the function of notes in their musical context. I just believe that one should clearly specify what that musical context is, and not just "assume" everybody must always agree on that context.

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 5:21 pm**

...yes, I know there's no such key as B#. That was the point !

(it was meant as a joke...)

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 5:36 pm**

In theory what would you call the note (which is played all the time on the steel) thats half way between E and D#/Eb ?

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 6:10 pm**

Personally, I sometimes think of it as E#bb.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 6:17 pm**

Oh for petes sake,
If you begin playing up a scale there is no flat,
If you begin playing down a scale there is no sharp.....

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 6:38 pm**

[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 01:14 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 7:11 pm**

2006 is rapidly coming to a close.

This could be the #1 flame bait post of the year is it keeps going. Happy Holidays

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My Site - Instruction [This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 14 December 2006 at 07:23 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 7:19 pm**

Some PSG players refuse to give up the idea that if a knee lever lowers a string... that note has to be a flat.

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My Site - Instruction

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 7:43 pm**

Doug - This is what I am talking about!

We seem to be on the same sheet of music..

Happy Holidays

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 7:53 pm**

Well, for me it depends entirely on the open-tunig that I'm altering! Regardless of the E9 sharps, when I Lower the (E)'s (½-tone) I call them (Eb)'s, even though my 2nd. str. is called (D#) and when I Lower the (B)'s (½-tone) I call them (Bb)'s, even though me 7th. str. is also called (F#)! However, on the C6 neck, if I Raise my 4th. str. (½-tone), for me it becomes (Bb)! I never refer to notes as [A#–B#–E# or Cb–Fb] If there is no Black-Key to the left on a piano-keyboard, there is no (b) and if there is no Black-Key to the Right, there is no sharp. {(A) being the exception} Still no sharp for me! IMHO Just my choice for doing things. That's only for tuning purposes! When actually playing in various keys, my opinions might be different!

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 7:56 pm**

zzzzzzzzzzz radio is between stations zzzzzzzzzzzz[This message was edited by John McGann on 19 December 2006 at 01:15 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 8:54 pm**

Regardless of the E9 sharps, when I Lower the (E)'s (½-tone) I call them (Eb)'s

A lot of PSG players think like that... if a knee lever lowers a note, that note is a flat...

It's convenient for us, I'll admit. I'm just saying that on paper... on the Tuning Chart, Eb would be incorrect.

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My Site - Instruction

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 14 December 2006 at 09:15 PM.]

Posted: **14 Dec 2006 9:18 pm**

Dave Mudgett wrote:

I don't see anybody arguing in favor of calling the note one-half-step lower than E an Eb if the context is in an E major scale. But as I and others have said, one can play the open or raised/lowered notes in the E9 tuning in the context of playing in a key besides E.

If you're talking about the open strings, it will always be a D#. There is no in-tune context for an Eb on the open strings.

You can't play in the flat keys on the open strings of the E9th. It will sound out of tune. It does on my guitar, anyway.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

The Steel Guitar Forum

Is it D# or Eb for E9th Tuning???