The Steel Guitar Forum

Richard it takes a couple of weeks, but you do get used to a uni after awhile. What I found when I switched from 10-string is that I was keying on where the fret symbols down the center of the fret board were in relation to the root string 8. When I switched to uni, the symbols down the center had shifted over one string, and that threw me off at first. I ran a red marking pen down my side of string 8 for awhile to help me find it. After a few weeks I didn't need it anymore. Now I key on the fact that there are 6 plain strings and 6 wound strings. The first wound string is 7, which I skip (in the root chord), and the 2nd wound string is 8. That works on 10-string or 12-string, unless you use a wound 6th string. By the way, harp strings are colored for just this reason.

------------------
<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David Doggett on 11 February 2006 at 05:26 PM.]</p></FONT>

I am currently trying to get a grip on the U12. I'm lucky to have never progressed very far on my D10 and that was 11 years ago. There are some really solid arguments for all of the steels and the one that really matters is what really sounds the best to each of us, and can we get our feet and hands to deliver that sound. Thanks to all that have voiced an opinion.

One thing I miss about my old 12-string universal is the low G#.....I really wish I had that on my 10-string. That string resolves a lot of low-octave runs and licks.

I enjoyed my 12-string, and would like to get one again in the future.

I think the 12 string steels that come with some sort of locking device for the B6th tuning works best, keeps your leg from going to sleep & rotting & dropping off during a B6th performance. mine looks like this:
pic 1
pic 2
pic 3
I have had other guitars with locks, but none worked as smoothly as this one, its the best I seen out there in locking the 2 E's and the 2nd string Eb to C#. Every S-12 Universal should have one. I know, the guys that like to work in & out of E9th & B6th will not agree, but if your playing a lot of 6th stuff your going to love the lock.

Ernie Pollock http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

------------------

I started off on a borrowed Maveric, but got a U-12 after a few weeks and have been playing one ever since. One of the things I really like about it is the extra bass. With the E9 changes I've put on the bass strings, my guitars have over a 5 octave range.

Never having had a D string, it's possible I'm missing something, but I'm happy with what I've got.

I guess it's all a matter of personal prefernce.

I started on a Maverick too. However, my mentor Larry Bell said get a U12. i did and I love it. The E to D 8th string LKR change is simple and allows for a smooth and mellow drop that a pedal (6th) at least for me cannot do.

No lock needed for me. After playing this for awhile, the knees listen to the brain! Most of the time. Ha!

I can hardly play a 10 string because I am used to the 12 string grip. Besides, there are some low tone E9 sounds with the A and B pedal that one cannot get on a D-10. Watch Jeff Newman's opener on his E9/B6 Universal intro VHS. The U12 has the power.

Steelin' Scott Alexander
Sho~Bud U12
Gibson Br9
Session 400
1966 Princeton reverrrrrrrrb (Br9) Makes the Hawaiin sound great
Tele with a Bigsby

By the way, thanks Roy Thompson for the inspiration on the lap steel.

I just don't understand the logic of putting a lock on a u12. It seems to me you're locking out half your guitar. It would be like playing a six string with only three strings. If your playing more sixth stuff maybe you need to play a B6th/E9th tuning. Holding the knee in or out can be a problem if the guitar is not set up for you. But, I can set all day long with the RKR engaged and have no problem. But, if you can't and want to play a U12 put a lock on by all means.

I suggest looking at Larry Bell's website on his tuning for the U12.
www.larrybell.org

Steelin' Scott

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Have a look at this. IT helped me decide. PLease take the time to read it all. I don't think in terms of 2 tunings. One neck, 12 strings, 8 and 5. I use what I need to get the changes I want.
Some players use 9 and 6. They have even more they can use.
I love the light weight. I play locally 2 nights a week and just lay it down in the back of the Suburban. Ususally a little bit of touch up tuning due to temp changes.

Only 12 strings to change and tune.

hope this helps.

My expierience (mosty from talking to folks with S12U interest at steel shows) has been that most folks who are concidering an S12U are also totally or somewhat new to the 6th tuning, and interested in getting more into it.

They soon know that C6th Instructional materials work just fine on S12U, and that there is comparatively not much in the way of S12U/B6th Instructional material available (I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of anything marketed as "One Big Tuning" Instructional material for S12U).

So if you are one of these people, I recomend getting the B6th lock, as you will soon be looking for some way to lock into the B6th tuning for the next several hours/days/months/years as your 6th journey takes off.
The last thing these players need is to have to hold that lever over in addition to trying to get the most out of the Instruction.

If you have a lock, you can either use it, or not use it. If you don't have it, you can only NOT use it (I've seen some creative bungee cord ideas, though) .

It can be turned on or off in the same amount of time it takes to throw a light switch.

The Lock is standard on many steel builders S12U's (ie. no extra cost to have it).

It's a tool that gives the S12U player more user options, making the Universal even more... Universal!


"I can set all day long with the RKR engaged and have no problem."

With all due respect, I can't imagine owning/playing a steel that required me to hold a knee lever in all day, just because I want to play B6th all day.

How does locking out half your tuning make the U12 more Universal? It seems to me it make more, well ununiversal. More like a D10. As I said If I were playing with the knee lever held in all day, and I can, I would be playing a B6th tuning. If you look at Larry Bell's tuning he has found a way to not have to hold the knee in all the time as did Reece Anderson, David Wright and many more. As I said the guitar must be set up properly for it to work. I wounder how many bars the band can play before I can get up and switch the light of. Pete your right the lock is just a tool, but I think it's a bad one. IMHO

<SMALL>I just don't understand the logic of putting a lock on a u12....How does locking out half your tuning make the U12 more Universal?</SMALL>

Well, it certainly isn't more "universal" while you're using the lock. But for someone who wants to temporarily focus on learning the B6 aspects of the instrument, it may help them by removing one physical obstacle in the learning stage. I also don't see how it's any more limited than the C6 neck that so many masters have used for decades now. One of the criticisms I have heard about universal is that it forces a more complex way to play typical 6th-neck material.

I have two universals with locks. I don't use the locks much, but in the learning stage of doing a standard C6-style lick, I sometimes find it useful to just kick it in for a while and not worry about the Eb lever. Logic says that if a piece requires the Eb lever be pulled throughout, it's probably easier to start out with it locked. Then as proficiency is achieved, one can learn to deal with the Eb lever separately. If one is in the early stages of learning 6th-style playing, why make it more difficult than if using the C6 neck of a D-10?

I totally agree that the universal is more than E9 itself or B6 itself. If that's all I wanted, I'd just have a D-10 and be done with it. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be viewed, in some situations, as purely a type of extended E9 itself or as a type of extended B6 itself. It is in this sense that I agree with Pete that being able to use the lock, or not use it - overall - allows a "more universal" approach to the instrument. If one doesn't want to use the lock - well, that's real easy. Just my opinion.

Dave, Ok now I will buy that logic. It may make it easier to learn the B6th. But, I does not make the U12 more universal, it makes it more like the D10. Which I think defeats the purpose for playing the U12 in the first place. (IMHO) But I say if that is what you need to do to make the U12 work for you then, Locker down.

But, as Bob, Scott and others (me included) have said, think about how little you'd need the lever-lok if your sixth pedal (E to D on 8 and E/D# raised back to E on 4) were on a lever so that you let off the E to D# (making the 4th string pull unnecessary) and simultaneously lower 8 to D on a second lever. It's the most often used pedal on the C6 tuning and restores the b7 for E9. With one one a right lever and the other on a left lever they can be very quickly coordinated. I have one or the other pressed about 1/3 of the time each and the other third, no lever engaged. No fatigue on the knee that lowers E's, even on jazz tunes.

Also, if you look at why C6 players commonly use both feet on the pedals, the combinations almost always either use the 6th pedal or else the combination of 5 and 7. With P6 on a lever 5 and 7 are next to each other. This is another plus for some players who prefer not to use both feet on the pedals.
------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps


<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 27 February 2006 at 07:39 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>...I still don't understand why WHO PLAYS WHAT is relevant.</SMALL>

Larry, in the real world, it's not. But there's always players who think that "If I only had this, I could do that..." The real truth is you can be a great player on either one. The "I need more to do more" thing is just a cop-out...blaming our equipment for our own shortcomings.

Quit complainin' and jus' play the durn thing!<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 27 February 2006 at 09:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

"But, I does not make the U12 more universal, it makes it more like the D10. Which I think defeats the purpose for playing the U12 in the first place."

You got me, bob. I thought the whole idea of the S12U was to emulate the D10 on a single neck, no?

<SMALL>You got me, bob. I thought the whole idea of the S12U was to emulate the D10 on a single neck, no?</SMALL>

No, that's one important thing, but not the only thing, IMO. The E9 vs. B6 way of looking at the tuning is a mindset, not a limitation. In principle, all pedals and levers can be used in either mindset.

Actually, I view the two mindsets as symmetrical. No-lock initializes into the E9 mindset, but pedals and levers can be freely used to switch. Locking Eb initializes to the B6 mindset, but again, pedals and levers can again be used to switch - even the locked Eb can be undone with the F lever. This implies a limitation - now there is no E9 F-lever. One could eliminate this limitation, at the expense of losing the E9 E-to-Eb lever, by making the "base" tuning B6, and putting an Eb-to-E raise lock there instead. But I agree with Larry and Bob that it's more flexible to not use the lock precisely because of this limitation.

I look at the lock as largely a matter of convenience, useful in certain situations.

The reason I chimed in here is that the thread owner, Calvin, says he is considering learning 6th tuning on a universal instead of a D-10. For such a player, the lock may be useful, IMO.

"I look at the lock as largely a matter of convenience, useful in certain situations.

The reason I chimed in here is that the thread owner, Calvin, says he is considering learning 6th tuning on a universal instead of a D-10. For such a player, the lock may be useful, IMO."

My point exactly!!!
bob points that out as well.
"Dave, Ok now I will buy that logic. It may make it easier to learn the B6th."

Making a Universal more Universal is the way I see it, but they're just words to descibe my take on it, nothing more/less. I think I have an E9th and B6th both at the same time (like a lockless S12U), E9th and B6th both separatly (like a D10, ala the lock), and the One Big Tuning thing also, all at my fingertips. For me, that's more Universal than a S12U with no lock!

Separate P6 thought...
"With one on a right lever and the other on a left lever they can be very quickly coordinated."
FWIW, I had a BMI S12U 7x5 a few years back, and I set it up with Larry Bell's setup so as to try it out for a while.
Larry's setup is definalty another valid way to "skin the cat" S12U style.
I was playing in a swing band at the time, about 95% B6th. Here's what I didn't like about it... It was just too much body motion for me having to do 2 things with 2 knee levers to get one pedal function (release one knee lever with one leg and enguage another knee lever with the other leg, then release that lever and enguage the original lever).
Being able to Lock into B6th (for all but one E9th tune typically) and simply press/release P6 to get the P6 change was much more comfortable, and mainly, just plain more enjoyable to play, for me.
You go from the I to the IV so often in swing, I felt like I was playing a "Knee Lever Steel Guitar":^)!
It definatly does not require a lock though!

Hey Pete
I guess some folks prefer their cats skinned and some prefer them with the skin left on. I did the same experiment (several times actually) and far prefer P6 on a lever. I have one guitar that doesn't even have B to D on 9. I hardly miss it. That, plus the elimination of two feet to get C6 P5+7 and P5+6+7 without using two feet cinches it for me.

Diff'rent strokes, ole buddy


------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Pete, I have Larry's setup, but for fast changes, I don't release the Eb lever (RKL), I just hit the D lever (LKR; C6 pedal 6). We actually have the pedal 6 functions split. My D lever does not raise string 4 a half step (string 2 to F on C6), it only lowers string 8 a whole step to D (string 6 to Eb on C6). Most of the time I only want the D (Eb on C6), so I don't need to release RKL. If I want the E on string 4 (F on string 2 on C6), I can either release RKL or hit the F lever. But usually all I have to do is engage LKR (without releasing RKL) for the pedal 6 change. My used Zum uni actually came with a pedal 6. So I can either use the lever or the pedal. But I find it faster to use the lever. I want to get rid of pedal 6, so I can hit pedals 5 and 7 with one foot, and can use the pedal 6 function on a lever with any pedal.

I don't find it at all tiring to hold the Eb lever (RKL) extended periods of time (but I don't hold it all night). However, holding that lever kills any use of my right leg for other levers a D10 C6 might have. Having a lock would free up the right leg for other B6 levers. Also, having pedal 6 would free up the left leg for another B6 (or E9) lever. So there are some compromises on a uni.

For someone who wants 5 levers dedicated to E9, and 5 separate levers dedicated to C6, that is very difficult to get on a uni. Some D10 players do not want to give up even one lever from either neck. The way I look at it is that by giving up one or two B6 levers, I get 90% of the E9 strings, pedals and levers on my B6 neck. Likewise, by giving up one E9 lever to put the missing D string on a lever, I get 90% of the B6 strings, pedals and levers on my E9 neck.

Another neat feature of a uni is that you dont have to make the C6 choice of a D or a G on top - you get both.

"...I have Larry's setup, but for fast changes, I don't release the Eb lever (RKL), I just hit the D lever (LKR; C6 pedal 6). We actually have the pedal 6 functions split. My D lever does not raise string 4 a half step (string 2 to F on C6), it only lowers string 8 a whole step to D (string 6 to Eb on C6). Most of the time I only want the D (Eb on C6), so I don't need to release RKL. If I want the E on string 4 (F on string 2 on C6), I can either release RKL or hit the F lever. But usually all I have to do is engage LKR (without releasing RKL) for the pedal 6 change."

I think you can see how this would be a drag for a newbee S12U player at his first B6th lesson.

My thoughts with regard to this thread are based on getting the new S12U player (who's dyin' to dive into the 6th tuning on thier new steel) jammin on B6th, starting with P5 and P6 usage (using the analogy that P5 and P6 are your home base pedals similar to A&B on E9).

I think the Sierra setup (although it's not what I use now) is the most user friendly for this type of player, as it keeps the Emmons E9 setup with E raise/lowers on LKL/LKR respectively, and when you lock LKR into B6th, you also flip the lever up and completely out of the way. http://sierrasteels.com/pages/setup.html

This is totally in line with the overwhelming majority of Instructional material available for the 6th tuning (which is mostly for C6th).

I understand the advantages and disadvantages of the major S12U copedants. With that said, it would be hard for me to reccommend a P6 that requieres a two knee lever change to anyone starting out on S12U B6th.
But I would gladly rod it up and let them try it both ways on one of my steels, and if they liked it, that's all that counts in the end.

Well, I tried the common setup with both the E raise and lower on the same knee (left). But I found that in E9 mode, there were too many times when I wanted to go smoothly from a Im with the E lower to the V two frets up with the F lever; and I couldn't do it smoothly with them both on the same leg. Paul Franklin also has them on different legs for "smoother playing." So there are a lot of steelers who don't like the common arrangement having the E raise and lower on the same leg.

I also didn't want the 4th string raise to F every time I used the whole step lower on string 8 to get the 7th in E9 mode. So my E9 preferences drove me to leave the 4th string raise off that lever. But if one is more concerned with exactly duplicating the C6 neck, then one could just have a pedal 6 on a uni.

But this brings up the two different philosophies for a uni. One is to sacrifice a lever or two from each mode in order to have one big tuning, mostly played without a lock. I think many people who do this (as I do) will favor one mode over the other, and thus make all or most of the sacrifices in one mode and none or few in the other.

Many of us favor the E9 mode, and at least have the same standard 3&4 dedicated to E9 that any single or double-neck E9er would have. While our B6 mode may not have the dedicated 5 or 6 pedals and 5 levers a C6 specialist would want, we have most of it, and way more than the many people who play single-neck E9s. Plus we have all the synergistic stuff with the E9 pedals and levers working the B6 mode, and vice versus, that no other single or double-neck has.

Others, such as Reece Anderson, favor the 6th mode, and choose their tuning, pedals and levers accordingly. They have as much or more than any double-neck C6, but things may not be quite as convenient for E9.

But it is also possible to ignore the single big neck approach, at least sometimes, and just try to exactly duplicate every thing available on a fully loaded D10. Then you would have a center left leg cluster for the 6th mode, and might have four levers on the right leg, with the ability to fold up the two not being used. And a lock would allow you to not have to hold the E lower lever, and to have another 6th neck lever in its place. This would give everything on a D10, but without the weight and size. And you could still play it as one big tuning when you wanted to. With this approach you will actually end up with more than any D10, because of the extra strings in both modes. Funny that is hardly ever mentioned.

The one thing you can't do on a uni is to change the string tuning or order of one mode without seriously affecting the other mode. But if you don't intend to vary the strings from the standard E9 and C6 order, this is irrelevant.

------------------
<font size="1">Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards