The Steel Guitar Forum

Well that proves it...
Intonation IS easier with JI!

...but if you ever play with anybody else, just tune em all straght up.

And after a few dozen beers and a few dozen years, it'll stop sounding so heinously horrendous.

Or you'll outlive the people that think so.

I think if we're lucky, and blessed with a smattering of real intelligence, we're our own worst critics. I know no matter how much I get cut to shreds by other people and their tape recorders, I'm the one that knows all the mistakes I've made.



EJL

good point pete I am sure the band and the crowd love watching a steeler tune all night instead of playing.

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Hey b0b,
What have you got against truck stops ? I am a truck driver,and rather like some of them.

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D.S. Rigsby
Wilcox SD10 3&5

"I think if we're lucky, and blessed with a smattering of real intelligence..."

At least there's no shortage of "psuedo-intelligence".
If ya could just take it to the bank!...

This tuning is Fun Stuff!

Tune 'em like ya stole 'em!

I have been playing for 25+ years professionally. Never heard of ET or JI. I have always tuned to Jeff Newmans settings on a tuner. Now I use a rackmounted Korg. I have always been told my intonation is excellent. I think as long as the steel is in tune with itself the intonation is in your ears and in your hands.....

Dustin: I have nothing against truck stops. Really, I don't. It just seems like an unlikely venue to settle Eric's tuning argument.

Ron: Jeff Newman's settings are JI (or very close to it). If you tune all of the notes to the same point on the meter, that's ET.

Thanx Bob,
If i tune to the same point on my tuner for all strings I am totally out of tune. How is that possible? 25 years ago when i started playing in bands i opened for Jerry Jeff Walker and the other band had a fancy strobe tuner. Previously i had been tuning with a pitch fork. I thought I would be cool and use the strobe for the show. Boy was I embaressed when we started playing and i was totally out of tune. Can't see how that is at all possible..... <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 01 December 2004 at 02:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

That's what this discussion is all about, Ron. Mr. West here is tuning all of his strings and pedals to the center mark of the tuner (equal temperament a.k.a. ET), and he says he is in tune. Furthermore, he insists that the JI method that most of us use sounds out of tune to him. The thirds sound flat, he says.

It's subjective to a degree, and I'll be the first to admit that I can't really tell the difference when I'm sitting in the audience. But to me, ET just doesn't sound as good from the driver's seat.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)</font>

Ron, you probably needed to retune your pedals and levers as well when jumping from ear tuning to ET. If you didn't, I'd think a lot of your changes would have been off bit.

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<font size=1>Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?</font>

b0b: ( And the rest of the Rat Pack I guess..)

I don't have a "tuning argument" to settle.

I"m not the one with all the arguements, insults, snide remarks, and grade school "challenges".

As for "Truck Drivers", I hesitate to insult other people's professions, or their commercial facilities, however subtly.

(The only argument I ever settle there is how much I get paid. It's pretty easy to prove.)

I'm not being shown why a "Code Writers Ball" or a "High Tech Break Room" would be brimming with common sense.

I'd go for a "Rest Home" I were trying to win a "tuning argument". Maybe just a bar.

I've always tuned the most simple way I could. I take the advice of the best in the field, if for no other reason than it's good sound advice.

I don't see spending another night trying to trade witticisms with people that can't read, spell, or punctuate, let alone show the simplicity of their points nor the validity of their complexities, and then trail off into vague snide remarks, and condescensions.

Bill, are you seeing any holes in all this "complexity", and what people try to cover them up with?

Hope I've helped you see them.

This is after all, for your benefit.

Not mine.



EJL


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 December 2004 at 06:17 PM.]</p></FONT>

Lookit'im Gooooo!
Internetelligence?(sp?)

"I don't see spending another night trying to trade witticisms..."

We're gonna hold ya to this one!

And no flatting them 3rd's just a little either! (the hole in the "complexity"?)

It seems that some of this boils down to a left-brain right-brain debate. We do not challenge the endpoint, but rather the means of getting there. I believe that we all realize that perfect intonation is not likely because of the nature of the instrument. The right brain in us loves the wondrous tones achieved with the bar or half-pedal, and our left-brain beams with pride as the guitar player ogles the myriad of rods and levers as we set up or take down. We all are plagued with F#. The right-brained player will adjust with the bar or an initial tuning and the left-brain one will use a compensator or both.

As others have already noted we are all newbies to a discussion that has flourished since the 17th or 18th century. (For the lefties, relax, the exact date is not important, and for the righties studying older music theory is relevant; no names need to be memorized.) The newer tuning devices allow me to try new combinations and evaluate my ear. A mix of JI and Et will have to coexist on my rig because that what my ear likes, and I have not fostered an addiction to a tuner.

I am very right brained, but I teach of very left brained, postdoctoral students. They thrive on equations, algorithms, and complex acronyms to solve what I consider very intuitive problems. I envy their ability to store this information. We were discussing a procedure that involved placement. In some respects, much like placing the bar or being well tuned. One of the students relayed his calculations for placement and asked how I did it. I told him that I could just tell it was in the right place.

I own electronic tuners, but I find I tune by ear at a gig to some pleasing temperament of my own. I do fiddle with them when I practice to achieve the nirvana of the left brained folks, but I never get there. I even own a Peterson.

Regardless, tuning your rig should be like a great pair of jeans; very comfortable. JI or Et, with a Peterson or a pitch pipe, it has to feel right.

<SMALL>I"m not the one with all the arguements, insults, snide remarks, and grade school "challenges".</SMALL>

Actually, and not to be challenging Eric, I don't think Bob Hoffnar was necessarily off base in his request for you to post some of your playing. Jeff Lampert posted a response that made some sense, all other things being equal, but the fact remains that you're telling us about how you sound. It would really be helpful for us to hear that. Not only could we judge your intonation, but also the types of things you tend to play, your sound/tone, and what this may imply about your tuning method.

The examples Bob Hoffnar posted -- although very pretty -- clearly weren't meant to show off his "hot licks," just how he meshed with other instruments. What's the harm in wanting to hear the same from you? So what if you don't have any studio-quality stuff you're proud of to post; surely you have something that at least shows enough about your tuning to give weight to all you've written about it. Aren't we all basically here to learn from each other?

If you suspect there's some hidden intent behind what I'm saying, I honestly don't think so. It's just that, if you're really trying to edify, something to listen to is worth a heckuva lot more than something to read.

BTW: I listened to the bit you posted a long time ago, and thought it was sweet. What's wrong with some more?

Jeff

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 01 December 2004 at 07:46 PM.]</p></FONT>

Eric, don't let these tuning threads get under your skin, brother. I consider you a worthy opponent on the ET side of the question, and certainly never meant to be condescending or snide in any way. And I enjoy your witticisms from the Gonzo school of journalism. Okay, Hofnar lost his cool there for a post or two, but I met him a few weeks back, and he was a really decent guy and played some really interesting stuff (okay, my girlfriend wont listen anymore to his experimental CD, but she's not hot on Cecil Taylor or Ornette Coleman either).

I learn something on every one of these tuning threads, including from your comments. Once we had both Paul Franklin, Jr. and Buddy Emmons sharing their experience and views. Okay, Buddy mistakenly got my name confused with Bill Doggett, the R&B keyboard guy who had a monster hit with "Honkeytonk, Parts 1 & 2." Then, again, he may have been jiving me - he does that.

I've got a few more thoughts that might plug up some of the "holes" you are concerned about. But I got to give it a rest this evening, due to other demands on my insane life.

As far as sound and playing experiments go, the best ones for my money would be to compile a list of cuts of a master like BE playing both ET and JI, on a variety of stuff, with a variety of accompanying instruments. Likewise, PF or any other top pro. Jim Cohen mentioned listening to his own tracks done ET and JI with a piano. I'd sure love to hear those tracks. I don't know if I'd put you and Hofnar down anywhere near my low level, but if I play my tuning with bad intonation, it might not be because of the tuning - you know what I mean?

So let's all just sit back and enjoy the flow of these posts. I don't think we've near beat this hoss to death yet.

Lets see. Jeff,

I did post some licks once, and just never got a real kick out of it. I asked people to post some of their favorite licks. Nobody did, and somebody noted that I used a lot of reverb. I posted a bunch of Pete's stuff, and though I thought it pretty sounded good, I took it down due to a conflict with the person that owned it.

Bill.

What's happened here, and I re-read the whole thread inbetween my practicing one of Seymour's arrangements, was pretty simple.

I posted that FOR ME, it was easier to tune everything straight up, and over the years to learn how to play and expect to hear things on the bandstand that way. I posted that I have been doing this for 24 steady years on psg. I noted it wasn't real "easy", but that I had yet to see a comprehensive JI method that 1. Allowed you to be in tune with tuned fixed pitch instruments, and 2. Allowed you to be in tune with yourself except for a couple positions at most.

Then it seemed to degenerate.

I seemed to have been singled out for being not possibly sophisticated enough to "train my ear to ET". And that I couldn't possibly tune that way "without a tuner", and that because Paul Franklin or Jeff Newmann don't have their ears trained to hear ET that I am somehow claiming to be "above them".

Then it went downhill further. (Besides Mr Hoffnar telling me that my teacher "told them all about Just Intonation and Tempered Tunings" when in my two years of study with him, I miraculously missed a single word from him about it.)

People accusing me of "knowing everything". Threatening to "bring a recorder out to my gigs" and presumably posting the most unflattering clips of it here to make fun of me and the band I play with, and then making fun of the places I play.

Bill, don't be afraid to let these people confuse you, drag you out to their derision, and try and fill your head full of crap they can't 'splain.

Like I said, I think it's pretty clear what happens when peoples' insecurities come to light.

Before all of this I was thinking of posting what I've come up with after working on a couple Seymour tunes, AND I was thinking of having Mr Marrs include a couple extra changer rods to adjust my G#s and see if they might be able to be "tempered" more when making my A/F combo if I decided to "try" some over adjusted tunings.

After reading all this brainless crap.

I'll do neither. Not for a while anyhow.

Make your own mind up.

You're the one that will have to live with your resolve, or the lack of it.

Enjoy

EJL

Thousands do.

Oh, and DD. I know lighthearted gonzoism when I read it. You're ALWAYS a favorite of mine. Concrete and Abstract thoughts intertwine beautifully. That's what music is. Wagner is my favorite for showing that.

Your thoughts are never boring, nor your manners insulting, snide, or threatening. Nor do I sense your taking my conflagrations that way. I don't care if you play like Buddy Evans, or can play not a lick. You seem pretty secure.

I'd love to have time to take the JI side against your "set in stone 'ET argument'".

I could hold my own, though I don't tend to do exhaustive research....

Not to worry about your "Stature" playing wise as you mentioned. I don't just speak for myself on that one....

Never quit beating a dead horse except to stuff some more oats in his mouth.

huh b0b..



EJL<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 December 2004 at 09:13 PM.]</p></FONT>

I do like reading your posts, Eric, but I've got to come down on Bob Hoffnar's side in terms of what matters in terms of 'evidence' in this discussion. What matters is what the steel sounds like in context. There isn't any formal 'theory' for recording JI with fixed pitch instruments. But there is a history of those recordings (virtually every record that has been recorded with the steel guitar).

And I don't know very many recordings that were made using ET. So put some up.

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www.tyack.com

Well Dan, maybe until I do, and I actually have been working on some stuff with my Podxt, you can listen to Buddy Emmons' last twenty years worth of ET tuned playing. This according to him.

Somehow I'm surprised that you state that "There isn't any formal theory for recording JI Instruments with Fixed Pitch Instruments."

I haven't even been that bold. I'd even settle for an "informal one" that doesn't consist of a bunch of obfuscation and snide aspersions.

<SMALL>I’ve tuned both ways an equal amount of years and the albums I’ve recorded over twenty years ago speak for the difference. My primary reason for tuning ET is to get everything out of the guitar that it’s capable of delivering. To me that’s what you should expect out of any musical instrument. Tuning ET has allowed me to use pedals and pedal combinations never before possible when I had to compromise. Besides, I figure if somebody can get away with tuning 9 cents flat to every other instrument, then I’m home free. -Buddy Emmons-</SMALL>

I know I said I wouldn't involve him on this mess, but I lied.

You go with Bob. You've got lots of company on this thread.

Did you have an answer for Bill, or are you just joining the Rat Pack that's gnawing away at the remaining bloody nub that used to be me?

You're showing up kind of late for the good stuff.



EJL<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by what was left of Poor Old Eric West on 01 December 2004 at 10:39 PM. DAMN late for having to get up at 0500 and haul 33 tons of sand..]</p></font><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 December 2004 at 10:47 PM.]</p></FONT>

Not to get picky, but maybe you can point to a post 1984 Emmons recording that shows an intonation improvement over the out of tune stuff previous to that. Buddy played some great stuff after 1984, but most of my favorite playing of his was from 55-83. He never sounded out of tune to me.

I don't know why you seem to take this personally, but I don't see why asking to hear an example of in tune playing should be considered to be contraversial.


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www.tyack.com

Since he's the one that said it, you'd have to ask him.

More possibly you can ask some of these rocket scientists that consider "chords with beats" out of tune. I like, and actually expect to hear them with beats.

Call me whatever you want for my preference, from a dullard to a know-it-all. Get creative.

Personally? Well, if I wasn't addressed personally in these posts I wouldn't take it that way, Dan. Maybe you can point me to one that I answered that I wasn't personally addressed in.

I really got to run.

I'll be back I'm sure to see what flower I'm going to get beaten with tomorrow...



EJL<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 December 2004 at 11:04 PM.]</p></FONT>

Swing and a miss!
Nice try, though.

Hey Eric, don't take this so personally. What's a few cents between friends?

There are plenty of steel players who tune straight up and are happy with it. You are a part of that minority.

I used to tune my C6th that way and it did not sound out of tune to me, but I didn't enjoy playing it as much as I enjoy a smoother sound. Ironically, I did a session with it tuned to ET and the producer later decided to use Bobby Black instead. My track never made it to the finished CD, and it was the only time I ever recorded an ET sound.

I'll be the first to admit that it's simpler to try to land right on the fret than it is to absorb and remember the intonation of each pedal combination. That's the biggest attraction of ET to me, and it's why I experimented with it in the first place.

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<font size="1"><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)</font>

None really taken b0b. I got off early enough to not get cheezed at wasting my non working hours today.

A couple of thoughts, that I'm obviously not afraid to post.

The "Ear" is a wonderful thing. Most of us that have played music most of our lives on any instrument, have better than average ones.

To have it develop intentionally or unintentionally is not always a good thing.

Mainly on a bandstand with other instruments with slightly different intonation, and especially behind some vocalists.

I have a great example that dawned on me today. I have worked with several fiddle players. My very favorite was a kid named James Mason. I only played with Donny Herron once that I barely remember, but he was an ace for sure. James ALWAYS played in tune. He played against his open strings on a strobe tuned fiddle. He rarely played in a closed position. This, according to him, kept him from "following things" that were out of tune. I felt he was not one of the things I had to ignore with my intonation.

Another one here locally, I played with a lot, just as classically trained, played differently. He had the habit of playing to "what he heard", and in this case it was a horribly flat singing female. Without exception, he played flat when she "sang".. With luck, he's found vocalists that don't "drag him off". It drove me crazy, and I refused to sink with them. I suppose I could have..

Now. My point is, (for factory workers that have poor reading comprehension, so that I don't "miss" them,) that often we (me and the mouse in my pocket) play contrary to what we "hear". Very often.

It's not the "easiest route". Especially with ear splitting volumes, however, in fact a lot of our "sensitivities" dull at bandstand volumes.

I"m going to ruin my whole 10,000 word career destroying multi-tribe, by letting it go that often in my basement, I don't tune at all if it sounds good, and I've even caught myself flatting my G#s and C#s, just to make it sound a little less sharp. Then, on stage, when I am in tune (and I do it over and over), I end up on open fat loud chords, in unison with the piano or guitar, and listening to the recordings, they sound just the way I want them to sound.

I say, tune it however you want to and play it like you stole it.

How about it Bill?



Night kids.

EJL

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Eric West on 02 December 2004 at 04:36 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>How about it Bill?</SMALL>

Me?? I've learnt a lot here. This is clearly a topic that won't go away. It's been around for centuries and will prob'ly continue for more. My conclusion is that it is easier to pull in a major chord to "proper intonation" (per the average person's ear) on PSG with JI. As for playing the PSG at any chord inversion, ET is easier to deal with. So is tuning to a standard chromatic tuner, and tuning to accompany keyboards and other fixed pitch instruments. I personally like being able to jump around to different inversions for variety's sake, so I tune ET. But that doesn't mean it's better than JI. Nashville loves JI, and Nashville is where we often define success.

Interestingly, with the TYC demos I've posted on The Forum, I originally recorded the closing chord in something very close to JI because I thought it sounded sweeter than my usual ET tuning. The band member who asked me to track PSG for the tune wasn't altogether happy with the sound of that chord as it rang out. I retracked the last chord in ET, and he loved it. And this band member is a tenured musician whose opinion I quite respect. So much for assuming the world thinks JI sounds sweeter than ET.

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<font size=1>Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?</font>