The Steel Guitar Forum

David F. said,

<SMALL>Ron and Rebecca need all our good will- they deserve a chance to succeed- and all those here throwing stones are not working in that spirit- even if their gripes are justified.</SMALL>

David F. also said,

<SMALL>I had a horrible experience with Carter guitars… The guitar- remember this was a standard S10, 3/5 which they promise on their site to ship in 30 days- was shipped on 11/30/2003. This is 2 days late. Carter can moan about the fact that Thanksgiving was involved- but the 30 guarantee makes no mention of holidays.</SMALL>

So if I understand correctly, we should extend grace to one particular steel guitar manufacturer for being chronically late in delivery, but we should withhold grace from another steel guitar builder for being two days late?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Randy Pettit on 08 March 2004 at 11:19 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Randy Pettit on 08 March 2004 at 11:19 AM.]</p></FONT>

Mr. Friedlander:

John Fabian's phone call to you today was a courtesy to give you the chance to correct your inaccuracies before we were forced to. You were short with him and did not want to listen (as usual).

While this thread is not about us and really about another builder, it has become a discussion with some generalized statements about builders and various builders' business practices. Basically, everyone has an opinion, and it's kind of like the old Japanese drama, "Rashomon [sic]" in which 3 people explain an event to a judge in a Japanese court; and none of the 3 stories bear any resemblance to each other. There are almost always more than 2 sides to a story.

John Fabian originally posted on this thread SOLELY because of what b0b said regarding full payment. Emmons and almost every other builder we know of are doing the best they can to deliver product to their customers.

Your Carter was shipped on December 1, 2003, the FIRST (1st) available shipping date after the 30-day mark, which was a NON-UPS Ground shipping day (if the 30th day falls on a non-UPS-Ground pickup day, then it falls to the regular next shipping day, as we explained to you before you placed your order. Again, you truly do not listen and you have selective memory; that has been both John's and my experience with you.)

Your statement regarding your steel being late is inaccurate at best. You were told by John Fabian and Ann Fabian at last one (1) time each, BEFORE you placed the order that we had temporarily suspended the 30-day ship dates and were promising 60-days maximum due to the unusually large amount of orders received during and after Scotty’s Convention; a fact you seem to conveniently keep forgetting. Your Carter was, therefore, shipped on time.

Additionally you told us to take extra time if we needed it, effectively restating that the 60-day promise was fine with you. I find it odd that you continue to take us to task for doing what you requested of us.

You also said

<SMALL>When a company ( Carter) does not give a HOOT if they leave a trail of dissatisfied customers, well, this is what you get.</SMALL>

We would say that when a customer does not give a hoot about listening to or understanding what they are being told, you get a dissatisfied customer.

The extra accessories were shipped to you to MORE than cover ($60 worth of accessories shipped at no extra freight charge to you) the difference in price due to YOUR cancellation of an Emmons volume pedal modification to the pedal bar in mid-order. Despite the fact that the modification had already been made, we shipped an unmodified pedal bar, again as you requested, and at no extra cost to you.

Below is the complete text of your fax to us dated 11/30/2003, signed in your handwriting "David Thank You!!"
See * * * * * * *below.

If you reread this, you'll see that you actually waived ANY claim about when the Carter was shipped. The Carter was shipped on time.

As you are now both a webmaster and representative for another steel builder, I would think you would strive to maintain a higher level of accuracy in your statements and claims than you have displayed to date.

Of course, you are free to continue to bad mouth us to your heart’s content.

We are just requesting that you be accurate with your statements.

* * * * * * *
TEXT of David Friedlander's November 30 2003 FAX to us in which he essentially acknowledged what he'd been saying in conversations with us from Day 1 of his order, that he knew his Carter was promised to be shipped with custom features within 60 days (btw: we had already planned to ship Mr. Friedlander's Carter on what was technically Day 30, Monday December 1, 2003, when we received this fax on Sunday, November 30, 2003):

"Hi Guys:

I hope you all had a bunch o' turkey!

I have been thinking a lot about this -- probably too much, but then again if I didn't love these things, which would I want so many?

I think it's mainly a difference in styles that caused conflict. I do not want to cause you guys any problems at all - just the contrary - I made suggestions because I thought they might be valuable - that's my nature. You guys, on the other hand, have a lot of orders - you know a lot more about these things than I do- I'm sorry if well intentioned suggestioins turned into an argument. The fault here is all mine.

I would rather wait a few more weeks, and maintain a good relationship with all of y'all. Please, take your time, Ship the guitar whenever you can comfortably do so.

You have my apologies for any problems I may have caused.

David Friedlander (Rocky)
[handwriting: "David
"Thank You!!
"email: contact@diamondsbylauren.com"]


 <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ann Fabian on 08 March 2004 at 01:22 PM.]</p></FONT>

..BONG!!...

...Boom!..a devastating right hook staggers him at the bell...sorry, "Rocky", I gotta give that round to Ann Fabian...
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 08 March 2004 at 01:30 PM.]</p></FONT>

As human nature would have it, people favoring either side of this topic are probably justified in defending their position. When you’ve been treated properly by someone, you’re going to stick up for them no matter how much others complain about their problems. Conversely, when you’ve been put off and lied to by someone, it doesn’t make a damn how nice they’ve treated anybody else.

I know nothing about the Emmons Guitar Company today but there is no justifying anyone taking a deposit for something they know, and I repeat, know they can’t deliver. I was promised a two year delivery on my Bigsby pedal guitar and it was shipped two years later to the month. Waiting that long to get a Bigsby was not a factor at the time because it was very special to me and worth it. Not getting it by then would have been a huge disappointment, so I sympathize with anybody who has had to go through this experience.

Ron Jr. makes a fine guitar and has a loyal following but would I be upset if the Emmons Guitar Company closed its doors tomorrow? I don’t think so. My push/pull guitar had a great ride and set some lasting standards, but the events leading to my departure from the company around 1985 left little for me to be sympathetic about regarding its fate. So whatever happens, life goes on and we adjust accordingly.

Ann:

OK- Let's take your post point by point.
1) John called me today and told me he wanted me to retract my statement- Since my statement was 100% true, I refused.
I did listen enough to know what he wanted.
I also asked him why he never took the time to call me when I had problems with your guitar- no answer on that one.

2) the reason for John's post.
Yes Ann, everyone has an opinion. When I was complaining of YOUR treatment of me, y'all were curiously silent. When it comes to bashing Ron and Rebecca- there you are, ready to chime in- if only to use it as another opportunity to promote your company.

I have my order form right here Ann- It's dated 10/28- from YOUR fax machine.
By your own admission you shipped on 12/1- that's late- contrary to John's statement eariler in this thread.

You claim to have told me this right up front- I have no recollection of any such statement- nor does it say that anywhere on your bill of sale- and you REFUSE to write an email or fax for such matters- unlike most businesses which would make such a statement in writing, there is NO proof at all you told me anything different than what you publish on your site.
You claim that you have "suspended" your 30 shipping pledge http://www.steelguitar.com/guarante.htm
Well- there is is. Here on this thread you claim you can't currently ship in 30 days, so why is the guarantee on the site?

Ann your ideas about customer service would be humourous if they were not so frustrating.
I'm a bad customer because I do not listen-hmmm- Carter customers better remember all the discrepencies these people come up with. And you better have a good memory, because they're not going to put it in writing.

I also appreciate you transcribing my fax-
Here's why I sent the fax-
Every time I spoke to you on the phone Ann, it was an ordeal- I know, I'm a horrible customer, I don't listen...etc.

Except I was the guy paying over $2000 for your guitar- any smart business person would keep that in mind.

I pleaded with you to correspond thru email- instead I was forced to recieve your calls- ONLY WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOU, and with no consideration for your customer's time.

In the fax, I am trying to be as deferrential as possible- The conflict I spoke of was caused by my request that you communicate by other means besides the phone.

The fax you've transcribed was preceded by a phone call where you told me that you would not be honoring your 30 day guarantee.
When you sensed I might cancel the order you abruptly changed your tune and said
"OK WE"LL SHIP YOU'RE GUITAR- ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?" This last statement was made in such a way that I understood you were very upset.

I realized that if Carter need extra time, it was a mistake to ask them rush. I also sent the fax to try ( in vain) to keep things on a positive note. How wrong I was not cancel my order that very day.
To remind those who don't know what happened:
I ordered a Carter. I did not like it.
I kept the guitar 6 days. I asked if Carter would take it back.
Ann told me that they would take it back at a $700 loss to me IF I got it there by the end of the month- And she was very clear that if UPS took a day or two extra, I'd be out of luck.
So I could loose my $700 by returnin the guitar- but I'd better dance to her tune, or then I'd be stuck.
I really don't like being talked to that way. I did not want to be put in the position of selling what I consider to be a non desirable guitar- so I complied - let the Fabains find someone to buy it.


The fact that I've helpmed Lamar to have a website has NOTHING to do with the problems I had doing busines with Carter.


This forum obvoiusly serves a purpose.
The last time I talked to Ann I practically begged her to act in a reasonable manner. I even reminded her that I was a member here and resolving things in a nice way would help everyone. My attitude and this post is the result of her response.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 08 March 2004 at 04:31 PM.]</p></FONT>

Does somebody have some cheese and crackers to go with this whine???

<SMALL>"As you are now both a webmaster and representative for another steel builder..."</SMALL>

That's interesting.
Who?

http://rockdiamond.com/pedal/lamar.html
I bought a guitar from Lamar and I really liked the guitar, and the guy.
I designed the site, and I host it for him.
This isn't going to change the world, but at least folks can see some of his work, it's awesome.

Peace, Love and Understanding

Thanks Dave. Sure looks like a good'un.
(and a money back guarentee!)
I wish them every success.

Mike Richardson,

Be not dismayed with man trying to defend the wrong and condemn the victim. This has been going on since time began. You will always have many more defenders of the guilty than defenders of the victim. We see it every day on TV. And in every walk of life.

Victims have always been called names, etc. Jesus said, "you will be mocked, cursed and spat upon for my namesake". This had much meaning. He did not intend this verse to only him.

He knew full well that when a person is wronged, society at large will almost always take the side of the perpetrator and mock the victim.

How many people went along with the "lynch mob mentality" in the old west? How many innocent ppl were hung because the mob scoffed at the innocent party while at the same time defended the criminal?

You began this thread with a legitimate complaint. I do NOT believe you exaggerated or lied about your circumstance. You had a right to state the facts. What happened to you was dead wrong, regardless of the petty reasons put forth.

It is not the company that is always right. It is the customer!! A very forgotten item in "good ole boy thinking" in society. But ohhhhhh sooo true.

NO company will survive, who argues with a customer; or treats their complaints with complacency; EVEN when the customer is dead wrong. ALL customer relations managers worth their salt will tell you, the customer is ALWAYS right; regardless. Probably more small business's have gone bellyup for failure to realize this than any other reason.

A company may not satisfy every customer, BUT they should NEVER EVER do anything but bend over backwards for that customer; trying to satisfy them; regardless. All truly successful businesses have known and practiced this wisdom.

And most all legitmate companies will offer a full refund quickly to show their good intentions if they sense there is no satisfying.

Sears Roebuck is one of these. A customer can roll over a crescent wrench with a back hoe, leave it in the rain till it rusts solid. Does not matter, you can take it to any sears in the world, and they will take that wrench and hand you a brand new one. There is NO thought by management whether they made or lost money on the deal.

They only live by one theme. The customer is the king.

When I was with RCA, they would do ANY thing to satisfiy the most demanding, hateful customers there were. We were told to say nothing even if the customer cursed at us. I thought this was asking too much. I realize now why they had this policy.

This is because we solicited their money, and because of this, they were KING! They paid the bills! And this practice made RCA one of the world's most revered names in business history.

I had to swallow my tongue many many times. It took all the will power in the world to keep from....But RCA was right. Time and wisdom have proven that painful reality.

NO company EVER won an argument with a customer; NO matter who was right. The customer is truly always right. Any one who does not realize this is just not thinking it thru clearly. It is a NO win situation with a customer. They hold the ace card in all circumstances.

Almost all succesful businesses will tell you that much of their success is due to "referrals". And an unsatisfied customer can do more damage to a business than most any other thing. IN a word an upset customer can destroy a business.

But in your case it is even more true, because YOU were wronged by the company. You are NOT the perpertrator of the wrong. You are the victim. Yet as always, there are those in society that will mock you and defend the guilty.

NO two ways about it. There is no reason, no excuse to have taken your money up front and then made you wait this long, UNLESS they told you the day they took your money that it would be a year before you got your guitar.

Since I do not believe you were told that, they should have long ago, offered to send you a FULL refund with NO strings attached. OR sent the next guitar out the door with the latter totally YOUR choice.

And it does not matter who feels differently, it does not matter who scoffs at your legitimate complaint, "the tried and proven business facts remain the same".

May Our precious Lord comfort you for what you have experienced, and may he right this terrible wrong.

carl

Carl- although you took a long time to get there you make a few good points-
Mike- No one can defend what happened in your case. If Ron and Rebecca are reading this hopefully they take actiuon and do the right thing
Additionally, I'm sorry that your thread got thrown off course here.
It was a manufacturer getting invloved here that spurred my post

In reality,I don't feel that anyone knows why the delivery times are so long on Emmons guitars, and I think we have had far too much speculation and too many accusations to satisfy some personal vindetta.

The problems may all stem from lack of quality of the manufactured parts. Should this be the reason, then I have to commend Ron for having the courage to withstand the inflamatory remarks that are being thrown at him on this forum.

Would it not be a greater injustice to the customer to send out a guitar of less quality than we all expect of an Emmons, just to deliver on time?

If he should give delivery pressure and skimp on quality control, where would the Emmons company go?

I personally wouldn't want to see them in the same tank with Sho-Bud, Sierra, and some others.

Some love the Emmons sound some don't, but I don't think anyone can argue with their quality.

Now that that is said, I don't know if this is the problem or not, nor does ANYONE ELSE on this forum.

We seem to have ne forumite that is bashing Emmons for taking a year to deliver a guitar in the late '80s. Where would Ron Jr. and Rebecca have been then? This is a long time to carry a grudge.

I also bought a LeGrande in the '80s and had an understanding that it would take six months, and it was delivered in five, and I certainly was not nor am I now a super player, so what does that say?

I can lonly hope Ron will contact Mike and get this worked out between "THE TWO OF THEM", as that is the way it should be.

I feel that adding fuel to a fire can only make it burn hotter and longer, and this forum has no place in problem resolutions between customer and company.
Thanks.

I love Rebecca and Ron to death and I am sure they are doing all they can do,I just got aggrivated when they kept telling me it would be here next week and next week turned into 7 months....Just tell me a year and I would have been happy.

Mike Richardson
Emmons lagrande ll
Nashville 1000

Mr. Woods, why don't you come to the Texas show and sit down in front of Ron jr. and make those same statements to his face??? I would love the be there...I can understand stupid comments from C. Dixon, he's been an Emmons Basher for some time, but you don't know Jack about Emmons Guitar Co.. Personally I wouldn't wait a year on anything built by man..I've been on this forum for three years, and it is no secret about the time it takes to get an Emmons..so whats the big deal here??..you people knew that going in...from what I see at Emmons is: between those people coming in the door daily for repairs or changing setups, to UPS deliveries of guitars that need something done..and 20 to 30 lenghtly phone calls from all over the place, daily..I don't see how Ron gets anything shipped..but he does..and it is rarely anything but "PERFECT"....tom

Mr. Hodgin.

I'd love to come to the Texas show, but not for any reason that you sugguest. I didn't know that Ron Jr. was not Ron Sr. I understand that now, and I apologize to Ron Jr. or any one else that have taken offence at my bitter memories of of the Emmons Guitar Company! I was only bitter until I bought my Fanklin, and decided then that I was done a favor. And, the only point I meant to make with Mr. Richardson, is that there are other guitars out there, and if he decides to go with another builder, it's ok! You never know, the grass may be greener on the other side of the fence.....Bob

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>... and at that point, somehow imperceptably, it all went to hell.

Some people thought it might have been the Mars retrograde, or the beginning stages of the mad cow disease that was to sweep the world, or maybe something akin to the trumpets of the angels foretold in the bible.

Like a cabinet dropped G# against an A pedal at the subliminal level that everybody realised they paid a cover charge to listen to..

Maybe we'll never know...

Especially after the Gunfight at the TSGC on '04.. that I missed somehow by subbing for Dale Grandstrom with his band for the weekend.

Looking back, It might have been my luckiest gig considering... -Eric West- from "Fear and Loathing at b0b's SGF"</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not drive up to NC to get the Steel..

"NEXT WEEK"

by appointment of course...


just a thought ?

t<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 March 2004 at 06:10 AM.]</p></FONT>

Here is my other two cents, now I will be broke.
I never owned a Carter anything...period..But I have called Carter with Questions on MCI guitars and other things and have alway been treated with consideration and respect.I don't know what more a person could ask for. How in the world can someone quibble over a couple of days in delivery time. In the grand scheme of things this don't even get off the ground.
God bless the whole Carter family.

While I have never ordered a new Emmons steel I do feel like a year is too long to wait. I did talk with with Ron Jr. earlier this week about the Texas show. Emmons Guitar Company will not be there and he told me about some of the problems they were having. I found Ron to be very polite. There have been problems with materials and parts being made correctly. I admire Ron for not settling for just anything. It appears to me that quality is a must. I think in a little time these problems will all be worked out and they will be put out at a more reasonable and timely fashion.

Gentlemen,

As the old saying goes..., "The proof will be in the pudding!" Now I'm hungry.............Bob

I can sympathize about not recieving correct or quality parts. But, I assume that Emmons has detailed drawings that any decent machine shop can make good parts from. This kind of delay should not take a year to correct. If it does, they should look for another REPUTABLE machine shop. Machining parts is not rocket science. I have programmed and machined more complicated parts than on any PSG, and was able to have the program tweaked in a few days (including having to do my job at the same time.

I sincerely hope Ron and Rebecca get it together. I would not want to see an Icon like Emmons go by the wayside like Sho~Bud, Sierra, and others.

Does anyone know if Mike ever got his guitar?

Yes, It was delivered to him at the Choo Choo Show in May.
Bill

Did he feel the money and the wait was worth it?



EJL