The Steel Guitar Forum

Ian Rae wrote:Changing the subject slightly, I wonder whether we're taking it for granted that the reduced length of a keyless guitar is an automatic benefit.

By losing the space under the keyhead we're effectively shunting all the pedals at least one position to the right, and if you are used to a wide stance a keyless might seem cramped, especially to Emmons players.

I am pro-keyless myself for all the usual reasons, but I can see a downside if it isn't actually comfortable to play.

On the Kline D10 I had, I had to remove P8. When I would go to press it, my foot would hit my volume pedal.

Richard, a great point. Master steel guitar building genius Paul Redmond, thought of just what you are talking about here. Incidentally, it was my concern as well. But Paul nailed it. I sit slightly off center behind my steel guitars. A bad habit I picked up from playing my Sho~Bud and old ZB steel guitar days, because of their monstrous long necks.

Not sure if the photo's here show it or not. But look at my floor pedals. I'm short, and arthritic. If you will look at my floor pedals in the photo, you will see how they all sit off center. They are NOT straight. I call this a "Center Pull Bent Y Configuration" So my pedals are right in front of me...simply perfect. Add to this, the genius thinking of Keith Hilton, with his angled volume pedal bracket. It's even easier to play then any other steel I've sat behind, keyed, or keyless. The volume pedal in the photo was my old Curly Chalker volume pedal, that I git out once in awhile. my regular pedal is a Hilton. Anyways, Thank You Paul, and Keith .



(Posted with the utmost respect of all steel guitarist, no matter what type of steel guitar they play)

These fella's sound just dandy to these old ears...

https://youtu.be/bsEiElbwxI4

https://youtu.be/vroXlv9gXTI

https://youtu.be/NkCOJb-Jss8

https://youtu.be/J5Mx5lhreMY

https://youtu.be/iGpEaJTLczs (Tom is around 8:16)

(Posted with the utmost respect of all steel guitarist, no matter what type of steel guitar they play)

OR



Be Blessed, I sure have been. Have a wonderful day.

George, very good points made about the pedals. Also, 4 tools seems to be greater than 2 tools.

Below is a photo of Kline that used to be mine.... it had 8 pedals and enough space for a volume pedal. I also have another that has 9 pedals and space enough for a volume pedal. stevet

I think this keyless/keyhead BS will go on forever. I have been in the machine trades since 1962. From a strictly mechanical perspective, keyless is the only acceptable design in the fight. Anyone who disagrees with that statement has not yet gotten beyond 6th grade math. They have also never used a trig table. For the unenlightened, a trig table is one where you can spill your soup and it cleans itself up!!! There are "givens"----
1)A keyless guitar, scale length, changer finger radius, and the like all being equal, requires less linear travel and less mechanical effort to raise or lower the pitch of a string.
2)The radius on the changer fingers of a keyless guitar can be made larger to further reduce rotational travel without stiffening the pulls.
3)Autoharp, piano, concert harp, hammered dulcimer, Celtic harp-- are just a few of the instruments which happen to fall into the "keyless" category.
4)String breakage is almost non-existent on keyless guitars.
5)It is amazing that grown men are living in fear of a damned tuning wrench. They actually would have to tote around a tuning wrench to tune their keyless guitar if they played one. Is this pathetic or what?
I thank George Redmon for posting the picture of my BMI S-10 keyless conversion. That guitar now resides in Earlville IL and is being played by 17-year-old Martha Hoffman who will someday put us all out of business!!! She took to steel like a fish to water. She loves the keyless features. She had never even touched a steel guitar prior to October 5th of 2014. That situation has most definitely changed!!! Martha is left-handed, yet has learned steel right-handed a la Lloyd Green and others.
Most of the debate about the two designs stems from two things---
1)Preference
2)Ignorance
The debate will go on, I'm sure.
PRR

I have 2 Kline's, 2 Whitney's, and 2 On-Trak's. They're all keyless. I built the latter 4. I marvel at the 1st two---the Kline's. The accuracy and repetitive consistency of Kline's is legendary. I recently acquired these two guitars, but the obvious IS obvious----set 'em once and forget 'em!!! Such accuracy is incredible IMO!!!
PRR

I listened to the links, & of course all top notch players. Just felt that they woulda all sounded better on an Emmons,Zum, whatever. To me, the keyless tone is just very blah & generic, and having a couple less tools or a couple inches extra room or a couple pounds less weight is just not worth the sacrifice of tone. I once heard a musician; I forget who, say "It is better to fight it (the weight) getting it to the bandstand, than to fight it all night trying to get your tone".

I will admit this--for C6, keyless sounds great; as good as keyed. C6 sounds great with old, worn strings. When I talk about generic tone of keyless, I am referring to E9 ONLY. That resonance just ain' there.

The best sounding guitar, other than my mid-60s bolt on, that I ever heard OR played, was my old MSA Classic D-10. I sold it a year or so ago because it weighed 96lbs. in the case. BIG mistake. If I could find the owner, I would offer him more than he paid to get it back. I wanted something lighter, & while I love the Mullen D-10 I replaced it with, I'd do anything to get that old MSA back. The case was huge, it was a bear to get it into my truck, but once onstage it practically played itself & sound SOOOOO Good!

BTW to the poster who said that the major players don't mind keyhead guitars because they have someone else humping their equipment--these are steel players, NOT rock stars. I wouldn't imagine that Buddy,Doug,Paul,et al has roadies carrying their stuff. I have seen too many pros carrying their OWN guitars & setting them up.

BTW, I DO think keyless guitars look great. Very high tech.

Everything Paul says is interesting, particularly about finger radius. When I built my Kline-style changer I made the fingers 1" diameter because my old Sho-Bud copy was that size and I assumed it was some kind of standard. It later appeared that modern instruments are more like 3/4", but I'm more than happy with mine.

From the pictures I've seen of various keyless tuners, many of them seem to retain the roller nut and have sliding string carriers that pull lengthways with no mechanical advantage other than the pitch of the tuning screw. This seems like a step back, not forward. I eliminated the nut (for the simple reason I didn't know how to make one) so that the strings go over miniature changer fingers and the adjusters have 5:1 leverage, so only about 5lb. of force at the contact point.

Yes, I have to carry two wrenches but I hardly ever need them.

And yes, this will run and run - conservatism is a necessary counterweight to gimmickry.

Everything Paul Redmond just said...That I tried to say so sweetly, and still get butt chewed...

Steve, that is one very nice Kline sir. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

I for one am not anti-keyless. As I said, I own one. I merely post that in my personal experience, which is limited to that one guitar, various of the things people say are better about keyless aren't better about my keyless. They're not worse, they're just not better. String breakage, time or hassle of string changing, hysteresis, "cabinet drop"--all not different between my keyed guitars and my keyless guitar. Others' experience may be different.

I've always,,,well, maybe not "always",,,but ever since late 80's when Tom (Brumley) lived down the road from me and provided me with a little BMI,,,tuned on both ends keyless,,,anyway since then been known as "KEYLESS TO THE CORE",,,,looks like we almost have enough keyless folks to start a club,,,,LOL,,,,"THE KEYLESS TO THE CORE CLUB",,,,LOL. I've owned keyed guitars since then,,,but always come back to keyless,,,,and have owned every make of keyless,,,,but always come back to KLINE!!!!!

Kudos to Ian,,,,when he first started that project I thought,,,,yeah,,right,,,,but now he has created his own masterpiece,,,,and started me to thinking about building my own,,,a cross between a Kline and an Anapeg,,,,may never get past the thinking stage,,,,but at least it is something to ponder,,,,LOL

Rich Upright wrote:
BTW to the poster who said that the major players don't mind keyhead guitars because they have someone else humping their equipment--these are steel players, NOT rock stars. I wouldn't imagine that Buddy,Doug,Paul,et al has roadies carrying their stuff. I have seen too many pros carrying their OWN guitars

just wanted to mention here that rusty young admitted he was weary of schlepping all his stuff in and out.
on the other hand, paul franklin has talked about the fact that he has a cartage company constantly moving his stuff around.
so...

Guess I'll just continue to be a stupid, unenlightened bozo who puts up with my crappy Emmons.

For a guy who says he has the utmost respect for other steel players blah-blah-blah, and the rest of you, you sure are a mean spirited bunch.

Tom - I'd have a crappy Emmons if I could afford one . My self-build is only keyless because it's all I could make inside my budget! It happened to turn out really well but I didn't know that when I started.

And I love my ancient pull-release D10 - trouble is I can't lift it.

My Kline

This song done in a studio in Nashville. But, I double tracked the intro and turnaround, and maybe the ending, and the rest is not double tracked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q_IIDS4QjU

Richard Sinkler wrote:My Kline

This song done in a studio in Nashville. But, I double tracked the intro and turnaround, and maybe the ending, and the rest is not double tracked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q_IIDS4QjU

I don't see how anyone could object to a tone like that! Great sound and great playing, Richard. Kline keyless rules!

Hey Tom,,,nobody said your Emmons (or any other guitar was (crappy),,,,some of us just prefer Keyless,,,take it easy,,,,I don't think anyone bad mouthed anyone's preference,,,,,,,or intends to offend anyone,,,to each his own,,,the thread is simply expressing preferences,,,

I saw a lot of bad mouthing and snide comments about us unenlightened fools who don't play keyless guitars. But now worries, it's all good. You like your guitar and I like mine and that is the way it should be. And what's up with your stuck comma button? ;- )

Thanks Bob. I sure would love to have that Kline back.

What Sonny Jenkins just wasted his time saying.
Sonny Save your breath.

Kline Rules. Steve & Sonny....I had a chance to purchase a Kline from a private party, who didn't play steel guitar. It was a private sale. I heard about it from a bass player buddy of mine. I contacted the folks, sent them a bank draft for the agreed amount. Loaded up the motor home and drove almost a thousand miles. As I didn't want to ship the Kline.

When I arrived the people changed their minds, and wouldn't sell it, for any price. He handed back my bank draft, and gave me a hundred dollars for my trouble. I cried all the way back home, still crying to this day. And my offer was very generous. The Kline was like brand new, hardly played at all, when I opened the case, it smelled new. I was in the process of contacting Paul Redmond to go through it for me.(sniff sniff)still crying to this day. The Klines are just a great steel guitar. Just fantastic.
Not sure who owns this Kline, but the one I was going to buy was for the most part exactly like the one in this photo. (sniff Sniff)

I don't see how anyone could object to a tone like that! Great sound and great playing, Richard. Kline keyless rules!

I will admit this--for C6, keyless sounds great; as good as keyed. C6 sounds great with old, worn strings. When I talk about generic tone of keyless, I am referring to E9 ONLY. That resonance just ain' there.

hummmm..... LOL

b0b, you are so right. The Kline E9th tone, will hold it's own, against any keyed job, anyplace, any time. Not sure who to believe here, the Nay Sayers, or my lying ears. JMHO. (at the point now, i don't care who I offend)Just kidding LOL lighten up.

Paul Redmond wrote:2)The radius on the changer fingers of a keyless guitar can be made larger to further reduce rotational travel without stiffening the pulls.

Increasing the radius will reduce rotational travel, but will stiffen the pulls at the inverse percentage, according to the law of levers.

Now I'm a novice at PSG and I can't tell one kind from another just by listening. But what I do know from long experience of other instruments is that a really good player will get something close to his own sound on just about any instrument of decent quality.

On the steel, the sound comes from the hands but it starts off in the head. When a player says "I like the sound of this guitar" he means that it gets him his sound more easily than some other guitar. He may be delighted by the sound another guy gets on an instrument he would not consider using himself.

There are many factors affecting tone and keylessness is just one more. A scientist may jeer at the spare length of the 5th & 6th strings behind the nut on a traditional steel and all the acoustic complications that may cause, but they're at the heart of the instrument, and if they sound sweet, leave them be.

Paul Redmond wrote:1)A keyless guitar, scale length, changer finger radius, and the like all being equal, requires less linear travel and less mechanical effort to raise or lower the pitch of a string.

This is true, but is it a strong argument for keyless? I don't think it is because too stiff pedals or levers are, above all, the result of bad changer design in terms of lever arm lengths / pivot placement, and missing helper springs. That said, a keyless guitar may indeed cover up bad design

I have both keyed and keyless steels. I prefer the keyless one over the others because 1) changing strings is much easier; 2) Tuning is finer than with a regular tuning peg, at least on my Schild, a point worth mentioning, but which I don't remember reading here on the Forum.

A question remains to be answered: Should a keyless guitar's body be as long as a keyed one to have all the room for pedals? Or is it more important to reduce the body's length/weight to the minimum? Perhaps, a poll would be in order....

Hans Holzherr wrote:Tuning is finer than with a regular tuning peg, at least on my Schild, a point worth mentioning, but which I don't remember reading here on the Forum

One thing I was very pleased with when I tested my keyless tuner was how precise it was, with no backlash. If the string's sharp, I just lower it - no need to slack off and steal up on it from behind.

So...let's get to the heart of the matter:

Why haven't Paul, Tommy, Sonny, and the other top steelers switched over? If there were definite advantages, I'd have imagined these guys would be the first to have used them.

I'd like to hear what the pros have to say.

Paul? Tommy? Sonny?

Bueller? Bueller?