The Steel Guitar Forum

Sound man kills tone

Yup, just as sure as the beach is near the water.

At best, when you cram all the instruments and vocals through the same amp and speakers, it sounds like a juke-box. At worst, it sounds like a heavy-metal group in Mammoth Cave.

" few ensembles and even fewer audio engineers have the patience and skill to make it work in a live situation. "

Dave, That's not my experience. I think it's harder for the group to pull off a one mic system, than it is for the sound tech. The first time I did it, it took less than a minute to ring it out. I had a game plan though.

I have found that sound men that do it for a living are generally much more skilled and competent than the bands. Current sound systems have gotten better and better over the years and the job of soundman has turned into a profession.

Very often the guy doing sound has gone to school and spent years interning learning his craft. We could learn how to do our job better from soundmen.

Years ago in order to understand the difference between my perception of the sound from the stage and what the audience hears I would give the soundman a set list. I would ask him to take notes on my levels. I learned tons. I still ask soundmen to listen for things for me when I am wondering about a new amp or something. What sounds like its cutting through on stage may be a 2K shrill nightmare for the audience. What sounds like a full warm sound sitting in front of your amp may be nothing but mud for the mix and basicly inaudible 10 feet away.

however, what you hear coming out of your amp is basically what the soundman should be trying to faithfully reproduce just on a full house level.

like mike, i figure my responsibility ends at the grillcloth of my amp.
i also try to be immediately friendly, helpful and easy going with all soundmen and avoid being a bothersome musician with needs.

I just can't help myself but to dive in this, though I will probably be blacklisted forever, here's my take. As a pedal steel player and the guy nominated as sound guy, the biggest factor in the overwhelming negativity towards the sound guy here is largely the age factor.
I fill in with a band who have been together longer than I have been alive. They still try to use the gear they used in the 70's, and its all dying a slow death. In their eyes, there is no difference between instrument cable and speaker cable; after all, they all have 1/4" ends, right?? In frustration of dealing with buzz, hum and feedback problems, I brought a basic system along for sound at an outdoor job to help them out.

The consensus of the 70 and older guys is that this is a lot of extra work for no reason and that this isn't how it was done "back in the day". The singer brought up the time that they used the guitar players spare amp for the vocals and how great it all was. (Wonder if they used one of his chorus pedals for effects?)

The result that day was more audience response and positive feedback then I had seen with the in years. The biggest obstacle is the fierce resistance to change. Nothing that replaces the way they did things in their glory years could possibly be better.

Dave Grafe wrote:...



You are wrong also in that the Bill Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, The Osborne Brothers, The Dillards, The Seldom Scene, Jim and Jesse McReynolds, and many other of the greatest bluegrass bands ever, have at one time or another worked extensively with the one-mic system. Those who have abandoned it have done so to accommodate the modern high-volume concert stage paradigm...

The "one time or another" in all of the cases you mentioned ended when they didn't have to use one mic anymore
The mando and especially the guitar sound thin unless you get the tonehole right up in the mic.
Just a look at pics of Duffey or Kenny Haddock in the day show just what a pain it was in the one mic days to get a dobro cone up to that one mic.
And the abandonment happened way back in the early days of the Scene: all festivals had at least 12 channels by 74, and there was no looking back.
While I agree with your phase distortion and other claims, those drawbacks pale beside the fact that for solos (and fills), there's just no comparison between a couple feet away in one group mic and getting right up there to a dedicated mic.

chris ivey wrote:however, what you hear coming out of your amp is basically what the soundman should be trying to faithfully reproduce just on a full house level.

I am fortunate enough that my regular band has a sound tech with this very approach.

Good sound men don't mess with tones! They are there to overcome the deficiency of the room, blend the band and make it louder with a pinch of sweetening! When they do that - if the tone sucks, the problem is within ...

That said - I have certainly seen my share of bad sound techs over the year. It's out of my hands, so I just make a mental note and do my job...

Mike Cass wrote:"Sound Man Kills Tone"...now there's a news flash.
Im responsible for what comes out of my amp. After that its outta my hands.

Kinda what I was thinking.

Bobby Hearn wrote:

Mike Cass wrote:"Sound Man Kills Tone"...now there's a news flash.
Im responsible for what comes out of my amp. After that its outta my hands.

Kinda what I was thinking.

The problem is, if the sound is goofy it's distracting and can make it hard to play well. The worst scenario is where the EQ is such that certain frequencies are looping, causing some notes to "override" others. It can make for a very long night.

It might be a trifle more accurate to say that a BAD soundman will kill a band's tone.A good soundman will will make a bad band sound acceptable and a good one sound the way they wish they could.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I once played in a steak house band and everyone played thru the PA only .No monitors . It was like listening to your guitar from the other side of a deep cave with speakers made out of coffee cans. Very tough.But I do believe one should have a little elevation on your speakers,I never liked the 'cocked back amp thing either. I place my speakers on both sides of me maybe a 4ft. spread (if possible)and on plastic milk box .And try not to have them too close to the back of my head Let it get out and breathe and not be blocked .And Walkers Sterio Steel sounds way big and clean. Of course most stages don't allow room.

Sorry for going off on tangents.I'll get back on topic.
But I must say that there has been some good tips on working with Techs here.
And some counter productive attitudes and solutions.
Also many many pearls of wisdom from yours truly.( ha ha ) ( again ha ha )

Anyway…There is a chance that some of us will mostly play in small venues.
Many times I can't even use anything but vocal mics. All I can do is ask musicians to turn down……….then they don't, and the vocals are too soft in the mix. Ya have to play softer than the vocals.

As for volume, I don't like it loud. It's kinda rude

As for me, my flaw may be the fear I'll commit the sin of feedback.

Keep in mind that sometimes an instrument's stage volume, may have a really nice
warm sound. The lower frequencies move all over the space, and all that is needed from the sound system is to distribute some high end into places that the stage amp can't hit. I run all over the place to listen.

When I am performing, I can't always get a good mix on stage.

Hmmm........
Most of you are blaming sound guys while you`re actually talking about the singer`s husband, bass player or some other inexperienced person who has been forced to do the job.
When you get to work with a pro with pro gear, you will probably change your mind.......
A real pro won`t have an attitude problem, either.

Olli Haavisto wrote:.......
A real pro won`t have an attitude problem, either.

This applies to steel players also.

OK, I'm going to put my 2 cents in on this one because I've been on both sides.

My main complaints as a soundman:

1. When your sound is coming off stage because you're too $%$#@ loud, don't blame the sound man, that's your fault. Turn down so he/she can get control of the mix, otherwise his/her only choice is to bring up whatever instrument isn't being heard, and that just creates it's own set of problems.

2. Sorry but I have to bring drummers into this too. I know you have to provide "drive" but this can be accomplished without hitting everything like you're trying to push the stick through the head. Then there are the ones who think they have to have a cymbal "crash" every other beat, get over yourselves.

3. Unfortunately for us all, there is then the musician (no matter that he/she is in the mix exactly where they need to be) has to be louder (in their opinion) than the entirety of the mix. Don't tell me these people don't exist, I've met them.

Now that being said, a sound man/person should be willing to work with the band as a whole to get each musician the sound/tone as close as possible within PA system limitations. You cannot have a "biased" sound man/person, his job is to make the band sound just like the recording (within reasonable limits), or preferably better with all instruments in their proper place in the mix.

A band is like a team, and if everyone is willing to compromise and bend for the good of the "team" as a whole, then all should be good. If not, you don't have much of a band.

All the above, my humble opinion, YMMV.

Agree with everything Dickie said, although I have seen many situations where the sound man is the one cranking it all up too loud.
And you left out guitar players - they can be culprits too.
We just replaced a drummer like you described with one who knows dynamics and everybody is breathing easier, especially the sound man, who can now mix instead of worrying about excessive bleed in all of the other mics.

This is really 2 different discussions - small venues, or opening bands at big shows, where you're at the mercy of whatever you get, and bands that have their own sound man.
I've done many of both, and have the hearing loss to show for it, and am extremely fortunate to have worked with one of the best in the business for the past 10 years. He's basically a member of the band, and a great example of how to do it right.

double post

Olli Haavisto wrote:Hmmm........
Most of you are blaming sound guys while you`re actually talking about the singer`s husband, bass player ...

Actually a friend's band has the sound run by the bass player's wife. AFAIK, Brenda doesn't play anything but the radio, but she has good ears, and she knows music.
I've never heard them sound bad.
Basically, all you need to be a good sound person is a little bit of tech knowledge, an appreciation of music (and how it should sound), and mutual respect from and for the band.

But there's a sound person equivalent to the "what's the difference between a person who plays an instrument and a musician?", but I lack the terminology to express that one.

I loved the Time Jumpers example posted earlier.

Dave Grafe (posting above) is one of the best sound techs around. When he has done sound at a gig I am playing I know it will sound like a record out front, he has the ears. Billy Tripplet (now passed) was another tech who had it going on.

I agree with the "both sides of the fence", been there.

I heard a 12 piece dance band play a small venue and I could hear every note played and sung at all times. Why, they were all professionals, and they had a sound guy that knew his sh... Together it was a work of art.

Oh to dream of how it could be.

Larry Behm

I worked a show with Tony Bennett many years ago, a sold-out, 3,000+ seat house. No orchestra, just a piano trio and Tony singing. Midway through the concert he had us turn off the entire sound system and launched into "Fly Me to the Moon." At first it was hard to hear what was going on on stage, but as soon as the audience STOPPED TALKING OVER THE MUSIC everyone could hear perfectly.

There is far more than simply knowing what the knobs do and how music should sound. The principles of equalization, dynamics and phase coherency, how different musical genres work (yes there is a reason some folks dial in the kick drum first, for a funk or hip-hop show that's the meat of the matter). I have been doing audio work for over forty years and I still learn something new and useful every show. The fact that every drunken bloke who has ever dialed in a car stereo thinks they know all there is to know about "running sound" has a lot to do with the rampant dissatisfaction demonstrated in this thread....

Much like playing the pedal steel guitar, there is far more to the art and science of musical sound reinforcement than can be learned in a decade or three, and it all comes to naught if the drummer smashes his cymbals when the singer is singing, if the bass player cranks the low end, if the guitar player is too loud and won't stop soloing, and yes, if the audience - and musicians - won't shut up and listen.