The Steel Guitar Forum

Olli Haavisto wrote:Getting young people to attend is not the only reason for this kind of a show. There are a lot of us not-so-young players who are interested in and playing stuff that is not presented at major shows today.

Exactly Olli. Can I hear an Amen?

KNOCK KNOCK:

WHO'S THERE?

LADY GAGA LICKS!

LADY GAGA LICKS WH...WH...

Umm, there is still an awful lot of conclusions being drawn by older guys based on what they do or don't listen to, and based on ideas about what "the kids" do or don't listen to as is represented by Clear Channel and television. I'll use Sid Hudson's comment, not to pick on him, but be cause he said it more clearly than others:

Something will have to change regarding the steel guitar if it is to survive. ...Not many young players are learning the instrument because it is still associated with the music of days gone by and is still played that way.

Is this necessarily true, based on solid evidence? Bobbe Seymour claims to be selling more steels than ever (at least till the 2008 recession). Just because I don't know personally of a young steeler, doesn't mean there aren't any. On the "different styles" thread referenced above there are dozens of new artists using steel in all sorts of contexts. Here it is again:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=208507
This cut from the Red Sparowes has over 200,000 views on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncJazOonwPo
for a one picture "video" from a steel-guitar heavy band, that's pretty decent viewership.

I mean, I'm an old guy myself, and it seems to me that to make this work it would be very important to find out some accurate information about what younger people are listening to, not just draw on our own thoughts. It would also be very important to notify the guitar magazines and do everything possible to get some placement in them, perhaps even arrange a co-sponsorship with one. Guitar Player is based in California, Premier Guitar lists an Iowa address but their columnists seem to be Nashville-based. Donny Hinson also expressed the idea that younger people are isolated from steel:

Today, there's a big void. Playing is squished, filtered, edited, homogenized and generally watered-down. Other than RR, there are no "youngish" guys that other young people (potential players) can relate to. No player in his 20's or 30's is heard on the radio, or seen (in a meaningful way) with the current popular groups. The current state of affairs? Well, no big steel intros, no memorable rides in the last decade or so, no famous "band albums" featuring pedal steel.

Again, I do know that "the radio" is meaningless to most of the younger listeners that I know as guitar students, as is television. They see Taylor Swift and Brad Paisley as the tame, sellout artists that the Clear Channel/television boomer generation are trying to force on to them. And again, Robert Randolph is mildly popular on the jam band circuit, but lap steeler Ben Harper is far better known and has sold a lot more songs. How much time in the past 20 years have any of us sat down and listened to what "the kids" were listening to?

In order to get a good idea of what the younger people are listening to and would like to hear, it might be a good idea to actually ask a few of them.... In that thread about different styles, I noticed that Justin Jacobson, S.M. Johnson and Daniel Morris were contributing a large share of the references. It's not a real good idea to chase this too far without doing some actual research and collecting some actual evidence; believe it or not, Joe Wright is not going to get the "young rock kids" in the door.

ok..get ur flame guns and ur popcorn ready...
I think its a good idea..we do NEED younger people at the shows AND playing the steel! I say bring on the new ideas to see if it makes a diffrence..it should one way or the other. But don't lose site of where the steel guitar came from!! Always remember the roots from where it came from.
And remember; the steel guitar IS just like ANY other instrument..its limited ONLY by the person behind it..nuff said! Thanks..I think...

Great Response guys. The pros and cons both need to be challenged before one could make a good decision. Wouldn't walk into a spike filled room with a blind fold on, so we definetally want to have all the data before this was attemted. I believe the roots of the steel are well known and definetally appreciated. There is many years left just the way it is, for sure. There is younger people, I have heard of many, that are playig the same stuff that say OLD Juniour Knight is playing

Austin Stewart for example. He plays this music and Loves it, but due to the fact the instrument is already developed, working good, and doesn't have to go through the trial and error of just making a setup like Buddy and Day did. He already has that done, the groundwork has been layed, and with him being a youngin he is tearing up the steel like one of the best I have ever seen.

I just think there are many kids, adults, whatever out there that could do the same, or maybe already are, but as mentioned would not go to a steel show.

Robert Randolph for example is not doing what everyone else is and would probably clear out a traditional steel show hall, but I have been to many of his concerts and he has a huge diverse crowd. I have seen steel lovers, down to Whaling rock lovers there. He has a very wide range in his audience.

As for a steel show, I believe the biggest point; wether they play steel or not, just get them to attend. That is kind of the deal behind this. Once at the show, we hook them. That is where the variation of music needs to come in. Sure we won't like it all, and you could definetally slow things down a play an old country song in there, but taking it to new horizons would be a strong idea.
There is no way we would leave this genre where we were designed, built, and lived around forever. Just push the envelope I say.

Sounds like most people here already know a bunch of other stuff, so we could easily try it at a show that is already going on.

Players: So maybe the next set you do, think of something outside the norm and try it.

Attendees and listeners: Don't leave the room, and bring some young guitar player to the show. There experience of the show would tell all we need to know to go further.

There is more of a need for players with a open mind than young players, the young players will come. If you stick to just playing the same progressions, it can get old, any style of music.
You think a young aspiring guitar player can listen to Jimmy Page at 67 or Eric Clapton 68 and not be inspired. The Major Scale has no limitations on creativity. How boring it would be if everybird sang the same song?
So the Old Standards are the Old Standards, they are great, but there time has passed, let's move on!
I think a meeting like this would be great!

What is brought up here is not only a good Idea it's a badly needed Idea..If you observe the age of the attendee's even at the steel shows now, you can see the dwindling crowds..Its because we all get old..It is nothing but pure selfishness to put an effort like suggested on here down..Its always been bad to limit anything to one dimension..Can you just Imagine the benefit to the builders if more genres of music took to the instrument???The instrument can't survive depending on living in the past..

What is brought up here is not only a good Idea it's a badly needed Idea..If you observe the age of the attendee's even at the steel shows now, you can see the dwindling crowds..Its because we all get old..It is nothing but pure selfishness to put an effort like suggested on here down..Its always been bad to limit anything to one dimension..Can you just Imagine the benefit to the builders if more genres of music took to the instrument???The instrument can't survive depending on living in the past.And guess what??? I and many others are the past like it or not..

I am ALL FOR new ways of doing things..If that weren't true I couldn't play the new *country* ..Take ur blinders off and let the music flow...But it hurts me when people BASH the old country or the old way of doing things..If u don't like old country..don't listen to it...if u don't like new country..don't listen to it..its THAT simple! RESPECT where it came from..don't knock it..lets all do this together or our much loved steel guitar will die..for lack off better words.
I say thank u..Paul, R R, Joe Wright, David Wright..and others who have taken the steel where it wasn't before..But I WON"T forget Emmons,Day,Rugg Green,and so many others before them for putting the steel guitar where it is TODAY!!

Not only am I still a fan of Old (true)Country I made a living at it..I couldn't have done it any other way and enjoyed it..At 75 my time has come and gone and so has the peoples time all about my age..I don't like the way Country was buried alive and I still make an effort to keep it going..But there just isn't enough of us around to change it..The topic here is someone wants to advance the Steel guitars use in all music genres.. To reach an audience of fresh young ears ..Why not??It's about an instrument that needs all music genres to survive and break it's one dimension reputation..This can be done without insulting the many veteran players,those who stayed in the trenches and made the instrument the great sounding instrument that made Country music a great sound..Why can't it be used to make other genres sound great too??.And keep the builders making a living as a fresh young crop discovers what all of us know..It would be ashame if about 1000 years from now someone discovers a steel buried in a landfill and doesn't know what it is..Or was..The Saxaphone did not die when doo Wop did..

Well said Joe. I love it too....as much as anybody here. It's just that I like other music too. The steel guitar is the vehicle I most choose to express myself musically.

You don't have to hate the one to love the other.

I would encourage players to just keep an open mind...you don't have to play or listen to anything you don't like...Just please don't be a stumbling block for folks that want to expand and explore.

BTW, I don't feel any obligation to gather new souls to the instrument. You can't force people to like something. If a seed is planted, they will come when their time is right. All I can do is try and play it as well as my ability allows. I try to be a good ambassador when people ask about the instrument and impart as much info as I can. It's up to them from there.

If Mike doesn't continue to push this idea, I hope someone else does.

I agree Jerry. The last thing the potential new, young players want or need is a bunch of us 55+ players trying to ram our ideas about the instrument down their throats. Someone like Chet Atkins, as great as he was, could have played 24/7 on the TV in the mid-60`s and still could not have converted "millions" of kids to take up the guitar like the Beatles did in a few minutes on the Ed Sullivan show.
By this I just mean that kids will or will not take up the steel if they choose to do so, not because we want to.
In an all-round slidefest someone might see the light, who knows?

PS. I have nothing but respect for Atkins, I just used him as an example.....

CONTESTS!

I had this zippy insight, not hardly original but it's one that can start up almost immediately regardless of having a concrete place, time and sponsors nailed down for the show(s). For several years now there have been the "King of the Blues" contests sponsored by Guitar Center, and Guitar Player magazine has had it's own rock-oriented contests. The contest start-up is FREE, God bless YouTube. People enter their own videos, then for the bigger contests there are regional contests boiling down to a single national final. It has a nifty circularity to it, in that it provides something (hopefully) exciting promised to happen at the show and at the same time builds up interest and attendance for the show. It could probably be explained at the very outset that steel guitarists in Australia have to pay their own airfare.... everybody else too!

It would be easy enough to formulate some questions to send to the editorial staffs at the magazines, which would both be useful in the primary task of deciding how to make it work and additionally alerting the magazines to the upcoming shows - and their responses might help gauge their level of interest. And as Mike is tied in with the Mullen folk and Zane is banging the (figurative) Jackson drum, we might as well confuse things further:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGmLsLmT11A
This guy, Kirby Kelley, won the Guitar Center "King of the Blues 2009" contest and is also pictured making smilies with Reece on the MSA SuperSlide page, and could at least help with information.

There may be some decisions regarding content and format that would be easier to make once the kind of submissions that come flooding/dribbling in clarify direction; it might seem obtuse to divide it into country/rock/blues/jazz/ambient/classical categories if there's only two entries in each, then again it is quite moderne to make sure that everyone gets a ribbon just for breathing, and categories like those could prevent drowning in a sea of greasy slide guitar blues. I developed a fairly serious allergy to standard "blues/rock guitar" cliches back there in the 80's somewhere, but it can be managed with a high-quality diet. It's largely a question of just how BIG you want to aim for. I have enough of a correspondence with Mr. Landreth I could at least ask him, Dan Tyack knows Derek Trucks and between you all you know the very best steel guitarists in the world; these are the fun kind of problems to have.

Great idea Mike... as far as old guys, you don't have to be young to be cool... Listen to Russ Pahl play "From Square One" on the Show Pro CD...

The first time I heard Robby Turner play was at a NAMM show in LA. in 1995, long before RR... The artist was Kenny Aronoff with David Grissom on guitar.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngPq_jn5ZSg Robby had a audience because of the artist (drummer) he was with. That night they played a lot of rock stuff and Robby held his own all night.. Book Robby on the show and have him play that kind of stuff.. Book Paul Franklin with the players, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZ0BY_VoWA great original music.. A lot of the steel players come and play the same old songs over and over because they think that is what they are expected to play..

I think steel players should be creating new music like Russ Pahl and Paul Franklin if they are going to play instrumentals and not just cover rock, pop or country songs... My favorite instrumentals recorded by Emmons are songs he wrote..

Bobby Black put out an album back in the 80s of current pop hits. Bobby did a great job but it probably only sold to other steel players.....

Even RR plays steel as part of the songs he sings...

Emmons, Day, Green, Franklin etc. all made the instrument popular to the masses by playing it in bands and for artist that had a fan base...

Don't make it a steel show, make it a music concert and hire rock, pop and blues bands that use steel guitar in a innovative way... Or hire steel players that showcase the instrument in a innovative and relevant way. Let the players know what you are looking for..

Also, one of the things that made the pedal steel what it is today was the manufacturers being willing to try new ideas that the players came up with... Most all steel guitars today look and sound very similar, especially to the non player.. This is not true with the electric guitar... That is what I have been working on with my ResoRocker back neck... The pickup setup that makes the Steel sound the way we all love is not always what we need to sound more rock or pop or bluesy... Russ Pahl's steel has two p90s and is painted like a Les Paul Gold Top... Very cool..

Steel players need to stop only listening to only steel players... Hammond B3 is an instrument that has a lot of similarities to pedal steel.. Listen to Bonnie Raitt, simple guitar slide licks with lots of soul and a lot of taste...

Hey Mike, I have a airplane hangar with sound, lights, a great stage and heat and air..... do it here.. for free.. I'll give you a helicopter ride...

My 2 cents:)

I might offer another point of view--more on the lines of a course of action that anyone can utilize in their local area. Perhaps a few of these ideas will be useful/practical--maybe not. Anyone can step up and try these points in their own area, thus contributing to awareness.

Mike, with the GOAL of eventually having a large Pedal Steel Show to show-case the newer types of music and how pedal steel guitar can nicely fit, you might try a local jam in the Denver area as a starter to draw local musicians and fans--and do it on a regular schedule(delegate, because you are a busy person) and build momentum over a period of time. Go at it with the idea that it's a MUSIC jam where steel guitarist may frequent, not a Steel jam. The public will be more open minded. It's all about the presentation.

Find a good place to sponsor your project. Use your local bands that are fluent in the types of music you want to expand into. Have workshops. Have workshops to teach country steelers how to play the new kinds of music. DON'T exclude country--rather, let it blend into the jam. You don't want to alienate country pickers in an effort to gain non country musicians.

For instance, I attend a weekly jam and am the only steel guitarist. The first half of the jam is hardcore honkytonk country, the last half is blues, rock, and other--and the house band is very talented and pulls it all off very well. But I have schooled so much on country, I wish I had some of the other styles, too. But the jam is great because I get a chance to "sample" the other music styles, and am pleasantly surprized with the results.

Back to YOUR local area, the local bands will get their families and pals to come--word gets out. Network your local music stores with fliers. In your area, become THE place to go to find / explore music. Enlist the co-operation of some of your local steelers to support these sort of events--steelers who have an open mind for other kinds of music. The cream of the area will rise to the top--and through ability and co-operative attitude---these locals could become your musician base for your festival (steel show). Let the jam morph into a quarterly show/music festival--blah blah. It really is an issue of musicians having fun, which LEADS to acceptance of steel guitar in other types of music. Acceptance by established steelers to play other music as well as acceptance by the band members/leaders of the different types of music to use steel. It's about presentation. Workshops by experienced steelers to help entry level steelers play the (different styles) of other than country music. Make that help available.

It's a marketing issue, and labeling it a "steel show" might alienate new attendees--so a less "scary" label would be important. It's about presentation.

some things that bugs me a little about current steel shows in general---99% instrumentals. Also, The audience is mostly steel players playing to steel players and their families. That's ok, but where's the general public? Seems the steel show promoters are not reaching the general public, or at least not getting much responce. I personally would like to see alot more use of singers--that would break up the monotany of constant steel for hours and hours. And more flexability to allow different styles of music to show-case. To me, that would be the "Way To Survive".

A person will be limited by one's own imagination.

It's easy to make excuses why Mike's concept/idea won't work, and some have poo-poo'ed it. There are many more reasons, though, to go for it, and far more supporters with great ideas to contribute. Hang in there, Mike!!

... Emmons, Day, Green, Franklin etc. all made the instrument popular to the masses by playing it in bands and for artist that had a fan base ... Don't make it a steel show, make it a music concert and hire rock, pop and blues bands that use steel guitar in a innovative way. ...

Wally beat me to it, I completely agree with his basic thesis.

To me, the natural habitat of the steel guitar (like most other instruments) is in a band. OK, showcase the steel, but also showcase different types of bands that work with steel, and bring plenty of players of other instruments into the fray. There's no need to specify 'country', 'non-country', or any specific type of music, or even try to draw in anybody specific. Just don't let anybody try to circumscribe what is 'appropriate'.

Actually, I think that getting overly steel-centric could be really off-putting to anybody except the faithful. Show how steel can work seamlessly with anything and everything. It really can.

I also think it would be good to feature slide guitar, as David M. alludes to with his suggestion of players like Sonny Landreth and Derek Trucks. I believe that the requirement of horizontal placement of a 'steel guitar' is artificial - the boundary between slide guitar and some styles of steel playing can be quite vague indeed.

I keep hearing people argue that the steel guitar (and especially pedal steel) is a dying instrument because, effectively, it is somehow musically and culturally limited. I don't buy it. But it should be possible to break the mold without disrespecting that which came before, as Jr. alluded to earlier. That's especially why I don't think it would be a good idea to try to limit this to 'non-country'. Good music is good music, just let 'er rip.

As a younger player and one who almost exclusively plays outside the bounds of "traditional" steel I can say I would be very interested in something along the lines of a show featuring bands that utilize steel in different contexts.

That being said I think there are some inherit issues with the idea of it being a Steel guitar showcase type of thing. From what I see in modern music is that Pedal steel guitar is more of a musicians instrument, and bands that utilize it in their music do so as a flavor to compliment the song. There are very few who use it as a showcase instrument.

I do however think that putting together a show of bands that utilize steel in that sort of fashion, as a flavor in a song, and as a break between bands have some really cool and different sounding solo steel players playing sets between would work well to highlight the instrument. People like Chas Smith or Susan Alcorn or even Daniel Lanois playing solo steel sets between bands like My Morning Jacket, Ryan Adams and the Cardinals, The Future Birds, Red Sparrows, Jack White, or any of the numerous bands listed in the Different Styles thread.Of course it would be extremely hard to get bands like this together, but finding other "lower tier" bands who still have a draw and use steel in a similar format could be pretty effective at spotlighting the steel while bringing in crowds. The Logistics of all this are probably beyond the scope of what we could do (at least beyond what I think I could do.)

I really believe the steel guitar is still alive and well, just not in the same context as it used to be. It is no longer a showcase instrument for most, especially in most modern music. However it is a sought after flavor instrument. It's versatility and sheer range of sound makes it an instrument musicians respect and seek out for their songs.

I think that now days there aren't really many showcase instruments, most music is focused on the group or singer, but mostly the song as a whole. We as musicians listen harder for individual instruments but the general populace listens for the song as a whole. Instrumentals and solos are not prevalent or desired in most music now days. For good or bad at the moment it's not a part of the musical landscape.

I do think there is a way to showcase the steel in a nontraditional context and I think it could be quite successful. But it would have to be done in a way that was less overt about showcasing the steel and more about showcasing bands.

Now I guess I'm ready to get flamed...

There's not a chance for this "new and different" kind of a steel show happening, if the promoters of such also stick with the "one house band fits all" kind of reasoning. As a player, there is nothing more discouraging than passing out charts only to have the band's eyes glaze over. In the band's defense, it's not fair to them either. I for one could not play my charts sight reading them the first time through, I would have to rehearse them as well. I've spent years working out arrangements of different non traditional steel tunes, and it's not fair to expect a band to sight read and perform them with no rehearsal. Otherwise, the steel player has to play what the band knows, which is why you hear the same songs again and again.

So... The only way to present this "new steel" music, where it has a chance of being performed at its best, is for the promoter to bring in the band that knows the steel players arrangements. The cost for this would get out of hand very quick. It would mean far fewer players with much longer time slots, which is another thing that would make me buy a ticket and see the show. I also don't have the luxury to be able to fly or drive across country to see a show either, so it would have to be within a reasonable distance for me.

along those lines, i think one thing that hinders the current formula of steel shows 'is' the fact that there is mainly one back-up group.
the same guys (good as they are) sitting up on stage all day gets boring.
players bringing their own pickers would add much to the variety of the music. the visual aspect of the presentation of music does affect me also.

The Beaver has hit the nail on the head.
BB

I think the Dallas show is fine, just the way it is.......I totally agree with Randy Beavers. Well said. Let me add.

Over four decades of steel shows, Are there any artists, producers, booking agents, etc showing up to scout their next steel player? Steel shows are not the garden some believe they are for creating new players or for the instrument to step onto the national stage.

Its interesting if you search out all of the threads asking, " what inspired you to play"? not once does anyone say, " they walked into a steel show and the spark was ignited." Live gigs, local club players, the big concert major artist thing, their recordings, and Television appearances do inspire new players....Now we should also add youtube and the forum to that list. BTW according to Jeff he never saw a slack time with new students. I also never saw a slump in student requests from newbies.......Instruction is the true barometer of new students. I'm with Dave Mason, some assume the sky is falling based on very little research. Steel shows are our social clubs.....Economically the old model would not work for a show like this.

Paul

In Mike's Defense I don't think he said he had anythig figured out. He just asked if there was any interest in something different. This could very well apply to existing shows just embracing a few different players. They always have so likely it is just a matter of some economics and availability. Next, if there was to be enough critical mass to do such a show then it would undoubtedly be a bery different model than St Louis or Texas. I think the convention concept overall is losing appeal within our culture. I see it any other walks of life that are not musical. Some of this is simple to explain with the advancements of social media and other forums that allow us to connect meaningfully. All that said, such a great thread!!!! Way to go for all insights here. No doubt there is interest to push forward!!!! I'm thrilled!!

If your idea is to attract new style music to pedal steel by way of a convention, you probably have the cart in front of the horse. You will have to find ways to infiltrate THEIR music with pedal steel. When they can see(hear) that it adds, they will have an interest sparked. Thus, work it out on a local level and allow it to grow. When growth is really there, then bring bigger and bigger shows to showcase THEIR music with pedal steel added to the mix. Thus the jam session concept.

Mike,

Do you know if BUZZ EVANS hs gotten wind of this ambitious venture? He would be excellent to highlight the undertaking, more than anyone who comes to mind. He's not a "spring chicken", but don't let that fool you. He's highly respected by all age groups. And furthermore he plays the MULLEN steel guitar. To say he plays, is the understatement of the day. Plus his "standard" guitar playing is second to none.

I would Love to See A Show Like This !! Count Me In