The Steel Guitar Forum

The essence of this poll is to see how many move their Es with their right knees, surely?

If that's the case, then both Emmons and Day players (I'm 'Day') who raise and lower the Es with their left knee should be added together.

Roger, the original post (more than 6 years old) asks on which knee people put their E-lower, and the poll gives 4 options, not 2.

I imagine that many if not most who put it on LKL set up Day. But I have seen Emmons setup guitars with it on LKL - never undrstood why, but I have seen it, as well as people who post setups that way.

Then there are various rationales for using one or another right knee lever for the E-lower.

Another relevant issue with this is whether or not one sets up E-lower and E-raise on the same knee or on opposite knees.

So no - I don't think the only issue is whether or not people set up the E-lower on the left knee or right knee.

I don't know if the poll is still running, but even looking at it as a Right-Knee vs. Left-Knee discussion, the percentages of people who responded are about 56% Left to 44% Right, which is actually less of a Left-Knee majority than I expected. And of people who responded since this topic got resurrected, it's 13-5 "preference" for Right vs. Left. Not saying that is statistically significant in any way, but interesting.

Great summing-up, Dave.

FWIW, Jimmy Day lowered his 8th string E on RKR, so this isn't really an Emmons vs Day issue. He didn't lower his 4th string. He lowered D# to C# on the same lever.

Also, the poll is still active on page 1. You don't have to post a reply to vote in the poll.

b0b wrote:FWIW

It's worth a lot if you like history. It would seem that the first knee lever to be added regularly to pedal steels was this string 2 and 8 lower. My ancient D10 had just this one lever when I acquired it and even that appeared to be a later addition.

Late to the party, but ...

Lower E's ..... RKR
Raise E's ..... RKL

Ian Rae wrote:

b0b wrote:FWIW

It's worth a lot if you like history. It would seem that the first knee lever to be added regularly to pedal steels was this string 2 and 8 lower. My ancient D10 had just this one lever when I acquired it and even that appeared to be a later addition.

Bingo! My first guitar was an old 3+1 Sho-Bud with that change on RKR. It seemed to me that the E lower was the next "must-have" change so I added a lever in the RKL position. That's what I got used to. In the 80's, when I got my MSA with 3+4, both E changes were on the left. I understand the logic, but old habits die hard. I left the "new-to-me" E raise on LKL, but moved the E lower back to where I had learned to use it...on RKL.

I did try the E lower on LKR for a short time. One complaint was that it felt more awkward to use the lever alone...not in combination with the B pedal. This was especially true for the "pseudo 6th" stuff where you hold the lever for longer periods. I get better leverage with my right leg because it's raised on the volume pedal. I have no argument with anybody over the logic of one location or the other, In my case, it's simply a matter of evolution vs logic.


By coincidence, my current setup is the same as this: http://b0b.com/tunings/jj.html

If anyone has a copy of Winnie Winston's second book, there is a section where he interviews four of the top players on the subject of knee lever use. It's been years since I've read it, but if memory serves me, each of them recommended lowering the E's on the RKR lever. However, NONE of them had their guitars set up that way but concurred that if they were starting over, they would lower the Es on RKR.

Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024

Craig, if you're referring to the Manual of Style book, that isn't an accurate recollection.

In the section headed "If you could add one knee lever..." ("if you had three pedals and wanted to add a knee lever, what change would you put on?"):

Terry Bethel says he'd begin with the F lever on LKL. Next he'd add the E lowers on RKL.

Jimmie Crawford says with a standard tuning (2nd string tuned to D#) first he'd put on E lowers, on RKL. With his tuning (D on 2nd string) he says he'd lower the 8th string and raise the 2nd string to D#, on RKR. Adding another lever he'd lower both E's on RKL and change the RKR to 2nd string to D# and 9th string to C#.

John Hughey, who played Day, says first he'd put on E lowers on LKL.

Weldon Myrick says F lever first, and doesn't specify location of any of the three levers he'd put on.

Yes, I was going to say, That is wrong, most said they would put the E lower on the RKL. A lot of the major steel players today have it there. Mike Johnson is one, John Hughey another. Should be enough said. Just keep playing. As Jeff Newman said, As long as you know where it's at."

LKR

For 15 years I was Left Knee Left lowered E' Left Knee Right raised E'. Day Pedals, and it worked easy to roll foot and knee together. Now I am on a new adventure a S12 Universal. Moved lower E' to right knee Right. Raise to Right Knee Left. Now I can get to pedal 4, 5, 6 and 7 with left foot. Guess time will tell if I can re-program my nero memory to this set up. Time will tell.

Bobby D. Jones wrote:Guess time will tell if I can re-program my nero memory to this set up. Time will tell.

That's the biggest problem in switching. Your thinking brain can tell you the advantages of moving a knee lever, but the muscle wiring that you've developed over the years is hard to change. When I switched my E lowers from LKR to RKL, I was still making mistakes 5 years later, mostly on songs where I had memorized intros and solos years before.

My experience of changing to a universal is similar to Bobby D.'s. But some players leave the E lowers on LKR and can reach the far pedals with it engaged. Others say they can't and have them on RKR. What this proves is that people are different shapes and sizes.

As for the OP, if you have E lowers on the left, it's fairly obvious which lever to use - LKR Emmons, LKL Day; but there is no clear logic for the right knee although there is a very strong tradition favouring RKL. Now is this mechanical? Was it easier to engineer on early guitars?

Or is it ergonomic? Using it with the B pedal on an Emmons setup the knees come in towards each other, which may feel better balanced than having them both moving to the right. (I play Day with E lowers on RKR, so my knees go out together - same idea.)

RKL....I started with one knee lever, then two, both on the right. Why change? Some time in the past, Buddy and Paul discussed the logic of one verses the other, both had good reasons for their choices...

Ian Rae wrote:
Or is it ergonomic? Using it with the B pedal on an Emmons setup the knees come in towards each other, which may feel better balanced than having them both moving to the right. (I play Day with E lowers on RKR, so my knees go out together - same idea.)

I've seen many players move their knee when they rock A-B or B-C. But IMHO, your knee should not move (read: rock from side to side) when playing the A, B, or C pedals.

RKR, and I raise the Es on the LKR.

My E-F is now on LKR (Day setup), but I found a definite logic to how my levers were on my first guitar, a ShoBud Professional. The E lower was (and will always be for me) RKL and the raise was RKR. The levers went the direction the string did. Made perfect sense to me and still does. Move bar to the left, pitch lowers, move lever to the left, pitch lowers, and vice verse. Worked for me.

My 1st pedal steel had LKL lower E's and LKR raise E's. that made sense to me at the time, I could remember lefty lower and righty raise.
Then my next pedal steel, my Fessenden 3x5 has LKL raise E and LKR lower E, I understood after a while how it worked better that way with the ABC pedal setup. By the way, I adjusted my LKL and LKR close enough together that transitioning is smooth.
Next came my Derby 3 x 5, same setup, feels fine.
Then came my fantastic Sho-Bud 8 x 4 and I have to say right now the LKR is quite a reach for me, so I need to adjust some more.
Lastly, my Remington 8 x 5 came along and it is so fantastically smooth. But the setup is LKL raises E's and RKL lowers E's.
Now I don't know which way to go or just leave them alone and remember which guitar has which setup. It feels so good to play this setup with RKL lowering E's.
I either change one guitar or change the other three.
I have a Hudson SD-8 3 x 4 that will not change from using LKL & LKR for the E's.
This has been answered a gazillion times at least but I need to read through responses to see what works best for LKR when RKL is used for lowering E's.

chuck lemasters wrote:Some time in the past, Buddy and Paul discussed the logic of one verses the other, both had good reasons for their choices...

The exchange can be found in Your E raise and lower on right side anybody?, one of the most interesting reads on the Forum, from 2004.

Ian Rae wrote:Or is it ergonomic? Using it with the B pedal on an Emmons setup the knees come in towards each other, which may feel better balanced than having them both moving to the right. (I play Day with E lowers on RKR, so my knees go out together - same idea.)

There are ergonomic considerations, slightly more force available to the adductors that bring the thighs in.
More force is available when the muscle groups work together in both legs, whether pulling in or out.

Douglas Krause wrote:Move bar to the left, pitch lowers, move lever to the left, pitch lowers, and vice verse.

The neuro-logic may be more clear in the Day example, but clearly that's not the only way to play. 'Jimmy always had his own way of doing things,' Emmons said. I think the concepts can be used in adapting either style with some consideration about individual usage and how one learned.

B0b points out that long-standing muscle memory patterns will dominate. My points may apply only in setting up a new copedent where there is no established pattern.

Thanks Charlie for all those excellent links.
I did read through all of those and was very interesting reading.

I am now trying to figure what is the best use of LKR when RKL is used to lower E's. Is it usually just a swap? That is whatever was on RKL would then be on LKR? I can go look at lots of copedents to figure this out I know.

Brint,
Thank you for refreshing my memory. The original poll asked about lowering the Es and I only remembered portions of the book, probably because lowering the Es was the first modification I made to my Fender 800, by relocating one of the floor pedals and mounting it under the right end of the guitar.

These days, I lower the Es RKR and raise the Es RKL. My reasoning has always been since your doing all of the pedal work with your left foot, why would you want to add more work to the left leg while the right leg just loafs along on the volume pedal. Additionally, you're not going to raise the Es and lower them at the same time, so one knee serves both functions.

As an aside,
I've always felt that all of the variations and custom copedents contribute to the slow growth of the instrument overall. A pianist can sit down to any piano and play without difficulty. Not true with a pedal steel, but this is no doubt one of the things that makes our instrument so fascinating!

Respectfully,
Craig

LKL, I play a Day setup, but thinking of moving both E's to the right knee.

craig...that makes me think that in a few hundred years they'll talk about how in the dark ages of steel players would actually individualize their pedal setups!!!

Craig Baker wrote:As an aside,
I've always felt that all of the variations and custom copedents contribute to the slow growth of the instrument overall. A pianist can sit down to any piano and play without difficulty. Not true with a pedal steel, but this is no doubt one of the things that makes our instrument so fascinating!

Respectfully,
Craig

A good pedal steel guitarist can sit down and play almost any pedal steel without difficulty. Beginners get confused, that's true, but it's not really all that hard to sit in on another player's copedent. E9 is E9, C6 is C6, and you don't have to use all of the knee levers in every song.

b0b,
That's probably true, and there's no doubt it's true on a non pedal E9th or C6th guitar. However, I've always believed that no two things can occupy the same place at the same time. . . including the human brain. If I am playing a song that calls for knee levers, and your four knee levers are completely different than my four knee levers, for this beginner. . . it's a challenge.

Respectfully,
Craig