Tube Amplifiers

[Donny Hinson]

Seems I read that a major problem to manufacturing tubes in the US is environmental concerns.

If there's big money in it, business will find a way. But since tubes are now largely a thing of the past, it's no longer profitable to make them here. I've been directly involved, and my experience in the manufacturing arena has shown me that many manufacturers use the "environmental" argument merely as an excuse to transfer their facilities overseas to take advantage of their pennies-an-hour labor, and lack of liability for worker injuries.

Manufacturing, of practically any kind, is pretty much a dying business in the U.S..

[Jim Sliff]

This thread went dormant, but I'd like to add a few things I was discussing with another tech a few days ago (and also re-state a few things for clarity)

First - here is Groove Tubes' current price list description of the "Made in USA" 6L6GE:

GT-6L6-GE- GT Exclusive Design
Exclusive GT design is an exact replica of the tube
used by Fender from the mid 50’s to late 60’s. High
(70%) USA content made from original GE materials
to original GE design formulas. Balance of
components and assembly in our partnered Chinese
factory

I removed the pricing so it was not mistaken for an advertisement. The description was changed just about the time Fender bought Groove Tubes last year as I recall. It has some US-made components but is "made in China".

Next:

The K-120's are rated at 100 watts continuous sine wave, which in my mind is high powered.

I thought they were high powered as well - but I looked up the specs last week and you are right about the "continuous" power rating - which is completely misleading and irrelevant. It's precisely the same specification as the D120/D130F - 100 watts continuous sine wave. NOT 100 watts RMS or music power, or anything relating to reality.

I don't generally use a signal generator and put a sine wave through my amps...and I'd venture a guess that most other guitar players don't either!

"Continuous" power is irrelevant and printing it in literature is misleading. To repeat - it is EXACTLY the same spec as the D120/D130F, which the designer has spent years trying to correct misconceptions about.

A sine wave is a smooth, single tone wave. It is a low-stress signal on a speaker, and on the D130/D120F it translates to *roughly* 60 watts of RMS power handling - which (without getting too complicated) is an average covering the various overtones a real musical instrument will push through the speaker (again, this is an intentionally simple explanation that is practical in nature, so I will not address any unnecessary "corrections").

That power-handling number also drops significantly if the signal is distorted. The total length of the sharp-edged, distorted waveforms is much longer than that of a sine wave. If you were to lay them out straight a MUCH longer line would be seen - and that length translates in general terms to power.

I hadn't looked at the "K" specs in years, but they're presented as improved - and that may well be true; construction may be more robust, better glues may be used, whatever - but it doesn't change the specs they publish, which clearly indicate the same ol' same ol'. And the same misconception exists (the Soldano website mentions the "K" as a "higher power" version of the "D120/130F".

Last - As mentioned earlier I'm well aware of high-fidelity tube systems - but they are NOT commonly used as guitar amps. Many of them WILL be "cleaner" sounding than a guitar amplifier, which normally uses less heavy-duty components than a high-grade audio amplifier. But a "hi-fi" tube amp is designed to be tonally neutral (not "coloring" the sound) and reproduce a wide frequency range on a relatively flat...or equal...level.

Which makes them, without modification, mostly terrible guitar (steel or otherwise) amplifiers. Tube guitar amps are *intended* to provide tonal color - just read the advertising literature, interviews, and posts on various boards - musical instrument amp designers have a particular focus: Fender's "tweed" tone" (mid-rich and round-sounding), blackface tone (cleaner but still warm and rich in overtones), silverface (cleaner still); Marshall's "crunch"; the "chime" of a Vox AC30; the brutal, edgy clean of a Hiwatt; the smooth, warm tones of old Gibsons; the saturated but articulate distortion of a Dumble Overdrive Special.

Line 6, Fender, Johnson and others have developed modeling amps that have "patches" to emulate the particular "signature" tonality of these and other popular amps. OTOH, a flat frequency response generally sounds terrible in many ways - the bass is too pronounced, the treble will scalp you, yet there is a "sterility" to the tone.

This is why GUITAR tube amps are used by 99.99% of the tube amp players - and also why they try different tubes (and tube combinations), different bias settings, change filter capacitor values (and other parts - especially in the preamp).

As mentioned before, nowadays, unlike 1965, tube amps are NOT plug 'n play. There are too many variations in tone (and even power) between tubes of the same type - changing the sound and requiring rebiasing of changed power tubes (and driver tube - always changed with the power tubes except in testing) every time a different set is installed. In the 60's specs were consistent between brands. Not now, where (again, repeating myself but driving home a point) non-audio tubes have been adapted for amp use, manufacturing techniques vary - resulting in different bias settings just about every time a tube set is changed (regardless of what Mesa Engineering says).

But to those who posted "it's too much trouble - I guess I'll just stick with solid-state": You are missing the point. With a tube amp you have far more opportunities to find *your* "signature" tone...and if not that, at least you can spend just a little time tweaking to obtain a tone you *really* like. There isn't the same flexibility with most solid-state amps, where "one size fits all". Knob twisting will not locate a unique tone - it simply adjusts the amp for playing conditions (room size, type of floor covering, size of crowd etc. I'm not saying SS amps are bad - but they ARE more limited.

Using a tube amp and learning how to properly operate, adjust and maintain it takes a certain level of commitment - so using one often depends on what type of player you are. You can be a monster of a player but never gig - so a SS amp might be fine, because it has the one tone you need; or you could be the same guy but like to play different styles of music - then a tube amp starts to look real enticing.

But to finish,, I'll circle back to rule #1 - if you buy a NEW tube amp, take it home and it just doesn't sound like you want it to, DO NOT RETURN IT. Hopefully you bought it from a store with a 30-day return policy - because you need to adjust the bias *immediately* to warm it up a bit, play it as much as possible for at least a couple of weeks so the speakers can break in (new speakers are usually awful and take time to "bloom"), then rebias again and find the "sweet spot". THEN you'll have an idea what the amp sounds like - because a new, out of the box amp usually sounds pretty bad. But just like learning to play guitar, you have to learn how to "play" the amp

[Bill Duncan]

Something that cannot be stressed enough is that home picking and playing out with a band are entirely different. What sounds sounds great at home many times leaves you wanting when played out.

A totally different sound, you will find.

[Jim Sliff]

Absolutely. It takes years of experience to learn what will work on stage - and even then you might have near-perfect sound and levels projecting to the audience, but a terrible monitor mix - makes it really tough to play well when you 1) can't hear yourself, or 2) CAN hear yourself but you sound like garbage can lids are being used for speakers.

[Mike Poholsky]

Yep, no kidding. Not only the sound, but a technique to playing loud. For me, it's something I need to practice away from the band as well. Exactly what you said Bill. When I'm able to practice at loud levels, I have a better idea of what to expect at a gig and adjust as necessary. My gigs have been going better since I've been practicing that way as opposed to practicing at quite bedroom levels all the time. Between playing technique, tube and ss amp adjustment, sometimes I'm amazed at how many variables one may pull together to get a "sound". Kind of the "working with what you got" theory.
This stuff is fun, and tons of great info on this Forum!

[Bill Duncan]

Mike,
You touched on something that rings true for me; playing loud. The two guitar pickers I play with are finger pickers and don't tend to play loud. They are always on me about my loud picking. A pedal steel sounds better, with more sustain when played loud. Our amps, (as steel pickers), whether tube or solid state are usually very powerful and are loud. One of the guitar pickers uses a Music Man 112, and the other a Blues Deluxe, both tube amps, and both under 100 watts. I think my Vegas 400 sounds better, smoother, and cleaner with less growl than either of theirs, and has much more projection.

[Dave Mudgett]

The two guitar pickers I play with are finger pickers and don't tend to play loud. They are always on me about my loud picking. A pedal steel sounds better, with more sustain when played loud. Our amps, (as steel pickers), whether tube or solid state are usually very powerful and are loud.

If I'm overpowering a band by pushing a huge pedal steel amp to what I think is its "sweet spot", then I'm too loud and I need to do something about it. No amount of argument that I need to be loud to sound good is going to change that.

To me, if I am playing with other players who don't play loudly, and I want to be able to push my amp to the point where it blooms, and that point is too loud to fit in with them, then the only reasonable solution I can see is to use a smaller amp, or perhaps use a modeler in front. Somehow, the volume level at the "sweet spot" needs to be lowered. Personally, I think the 80-watt Nashville 112 is great for this situation. I also have a Peavey Bandit 65 (solid-state) and Mesa Nomad 65 (tube) that work well for these lower-volume situations also.

BTW - the argument that "I need to play loud - my amp sounds lousy until I crank it up." has been used by guitar players for decades to justify playing way too loud. Think cranked 100-watt Marshall stacks or Twin Reverbs in a small club. I don't think that argument holds water in any context. Lord knows I've used it myself, but people are a lot happier with me now that I gave that up.

All my opinions, of course.

[Mike Poholsky]

Absolutely. I'm not talking about being overpowering loud. Maybe a better way to put it: there is a difference, playing licks, turnarounds, solos, entire songs, in my music room and then transfering it to the stage with the band. If I practice at higher volumes, it helps me deal with those nuances on stage with the band. Come'on, I'm NEVER too loud!

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, I agree that there's a big difference between "bedroom volume" and "gig volume". The whole Fletcher-Munson type of frequency-response vs. volume curve, among other things, come into play - one's tonality, sustain, distortion level, and other things come into play.

Fundamentally, no matter what we do, amplification is nonlinear with volume level, not linear.

[Jim Ives]

Back to Tube Amps. I just picked up a Fender Bassman reissue. Got it retubed and it sounds great at home with a sweet, mellow tone and plenty of headroom. Haven't gigged with it yet, however.
-Jim

[Dave Mudgett]

Still on tube amps - IMO this scaling issue of tonality vs. volume is especially critical for tube amps. Tube amps are typically quite nonlinear in their useful operating region, and picking the correct amp size for the application is important. I think it's important for solid-state also, but even more important for tube amps due to the more gradual saturation characteristic for tubes, plus the fact that powerful tube amps are very big and heavy, expensive to retube, and a general PITA. Don't get me wrong - I love 'em, but they are a PITA.

I have a homebrew tweed Bassman - ptp wired and pretty much a dead ringer for a real one. It sounds wonderful for pedal steel at home with a little reverb and delay if I don't push it too hard, and works pretty well at a not-so-loud gig. But it saturates out pretty badly on a loud gig. In terms of tube amps, I can't get away with anything less than a Twin/Dual-Showman Reverb for pedal steel if the stage volume gets loud.

In contrast, I can use a solid-state NV 400/1000 or NV 112 interchangeably for practically any pedal steel gig. The 112 is probably better for smaller gigs but doesn't turn to mush if I have to push it, provided I do some EQ tweaking. Conversely, the 400/1000 are (IMO) better for louder gigs, but I can scale them back (again with some tweaking of the EQ) for a lower-volume situation if need be, without sounding like a completely different amp.

Just my take, as usual.

[Ben Jones]

getting back to tube amps and that 59 bassman...the guitarist in a band I was in had a 59 bassman modded with master volume. It wasnt the reissue. It had the best overdriven tone of any amp Ive ever heard. I'd love to be able to get that tone. since theres no way i can afford a real 59 bassman, nor would I feel comfortable modding such a scollectible...I might try and make one. That tweed deluxe I built is just awesome.

For arguments sake....
Best tube steel amp of all time?
Twin

Best tube guitar amp of all time...haha...you cant do that! Too many and too varied.. but for arguments sake lets say....
Twin

and by logical conclusion, best tube amp of all time, and therefor best amplifier of all time?
Twin

Tha said I own a showman. twin=too heavy
I'd love one of those hand wired 57's tho

[Dave Mudgett]

Best tube guitar amp of all time...haha...you cant do that!

Oh, yes you can. Deluxe Reverb, hands down. Of course, everyone has a different view.

Actually, I think the Deluxe Reverb sounds as good or better than anything out there for steel also, but one needs to treat it purely as a tone generator at a lower volume, mic it, and re-amplify it through something else that's very loud and clean if needed. Again, a PITA, but it is a great sound. Just listen to Lloyd Green on "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" on the Byrds "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" - that's a DR, as has been documented in many places.

[Bill Duncan]

I still think my Vegas 400 sounds better than any tube amp I've heard. To my ears tube amps are harsh, and fuzzy/distorted. My Vegas is extremely smooth and mellow, without even a hint of "fuzzie". The highs are clear, clean, and pleasant, with no harshness.

[Jim Peters]

I have tried my SF Deluxe and the JBL loaded deluxe at rehearsal space with my steel, and I will take my NV 112 anytime, any gig over the Deluxe. On 6 string the Deluxe is almost always my amp of choice, the best tube amp I've ever owned, but just doesn't work for me on steel at all. JP

[Bill Duncan]

I guess this all goes to "personal preference". At the start of this thread I asked more or less what was so great about tube amps, and I still cannot appreciate them as some folks do for pedal steel. It's ultimately up to the tastes of the individual, and this individual doesn't like the sound of tube amps. I've tried several since the beginning of this thread, and I just have not heard one that did not exhiblt the fuzzie growl that irritates me.

There is no accounting for taste, and my tastes don't seem to favor tube amps.

[Ben Jones]

Theres a guy here in town playing gigs with a sf deluxe..when i can hear him he sounds great, but I can rarely hear him. sound guys fault maybe, but i cant help thinking I'd hear him better with a louder amp as i was able to hear the other steeler with a steel king that night.

I am a toob snob. But i have got to admit that i love the sound I get from my SS evans. Its a smoother, almost compresssed sound and sometimes, often, thats a great sound for pedal steel.

I was gonna say tat on recordings i greatly prefer the sound of tube amps on steel ala LLoyd Green, but then i rememebred all the fantastic tones that came from SS amps

there is no "best" obviously
i have an evans SS and i have a showman tube. Im a lucky guy.

SS amps work well for some applications . take bass for example. I think for steel they also can work very well . depends on what you are going for. On six string guitar, thats where the SS amps have just not done anything for me.

[Jim Sliff]

BTW - the argument that "I need to play loud - my amp sounds lousy until I crank it up." has been used by guitar players for decades to justify playing way too loud.

I rarely hear that one even in hard rock circles.

What I *do* hear is "my amp needs to be loud enough to drive the speakers so it doesn't sound thin.

However, sometimes that gets translated as "loud" - especially with a 100-watt Marshall, Bogner, etc.

That's why I have a stable of amps of different power levels and different speaker setups. A Twin might sound good outside, but it's generally a crappy amp for a small club. OTOH, a 30-35 watt Vibrolux Reverb won't cut it outdoors but may be just the ticket for a small venue.

I do not see how any seriously gigging player of any instrument can use one amplifier all the time. I can just about guarantee - having spent many years on BOTH sides of the soundboard - that one-amp users will sound pretty lousy abut half the time - they just don't have appropriate equipment!

[Bill Duncan]

Sometimes I think I sound "crappy" no matter what! The amplifier probably is only an innocent bystander. Tube or transistor sometimes it just ain't enough.

Even with years of practice a cat can sometimes still have trouble covering up crap entirely.

[Dave Mudgett]

I rarely hear that one even in hard rock circles.

Jim - I think it's better now than it used to be. Most guitar players these days are much more savvy about using different size amps for different venues. It's more rare now to hear, "Hey, I only have this one amp - a 100 watt JCM 800 full stack, and I have to crank it to get my sound." But I do still here it sometimes - some guys still insist that they have to have this huge amp cranked up. But I agree that it's an argument that doesn't sell very well anymore.

I think a lot of guitar players have been on a gear-orgy for the last 10-20 years, and now have lots of amps. But not so long ago, I used to hear that a lot - in fact, I've said that myself as I tried to justify cranking up a '69 Twin Reverb in a small club. That's been a while, though.

For either guitar or pedal steel, I need at least 3 amps to cover the range of volumes I have to deal with, unless I'm using some type of modeler, which scales a bit easier to my ears. For steel, something like a Princeton or Deluxe Reverb or small Peavey SS amp works for real low-level situations (like acoustic instruments with no drums), I use a Mesa Nomad 45 or NV 112 for mid-levels, and either a Twin/Dual Showman Reverb or NV 400/1000 covers the situation where I really need a high stage volume - for example, when there's large stage or loud drummer.

The issue for me is what volume I need to hear myself on stage. Most gigs, I'm mic'd and running through the front-of-house PA, but not monitors.

[Brad Sarno]

Me too.

For 6-string guitar I have 3 guitar amps and I'll pick the right one depending on the gig. Most of the time it's a Tweed Deluxe type amp (with bass/treble control) with 12 watts and a JBL. That thing fills most bars I play, and that's with drums. For more acoustic and light percussion listening room gigs, I'll use the little 5 watt champ, with a little 10" JBL. Still a loud amp and I have to be careful. For gigs where I'm on a huge stage at rock concert volumes, I'll use my Deluxe Reverb with a D120. It's been 15 years since I used an amp louder than 24 watts. I can't imagine ever needing more power for guitar. My ears are grateful too. My general rule of thumb is that if you don't think your guitar amp is loud enough then just stand closer to it.

Now for steel, since I'm wanting clean headroom, I just use a tube preamp and the Furlong powered cab for basically infinite power and headroom and adjust for the setting. I can play with that rig at livingroom rehearsal volumes or keep up with rockers who are using a pair of Twins.

I did have pretty good luck for a while in small and medium clubs using the Deluxe Reverb as a dual duty amp. Steel in one channel, guitar in the other. But that was fairly easy to get the steel to break up, and that was a cool sound for the country rock gig that it was. Still loud as hell with a D120 and healthy tubes.

Brad

[Ben Jones]

I have a 120 watt sunn.
I used to run the sunn with a full stack. It wasnt what was needed for the clubs we played. It was about the musical style demanding crushing volume.

I was almost forty before i gave that stuff up. guess i was a late bloomer but I am only just now discovering the sounds of small low wattage vintage tube amps pushed to breakup and thats what I now crave.
so what Dave M said holds true for me. afew years ago i would abeen the guy withe 100 watter, today im the guy with the homemade twed deluxe.

I always hated the "guitar arms race" as i called it...the idea that you had to be louder than the band before you in some sort of never ending escalation to insane volume levels, but it was literally demanded of you by your bandmates and by the audiences too. at least in the circles I moved in. I had to listen to some shows from across the street from the club...it was unbearable at times... juts sickening volume levels in these really small clubs.

I most commonly saw sunns, oranges, matamps, Greens, Electrics, marshalls, soldanos, mesa triple recs. Bass was almost always the SVT fridge cabs. combos were unheard of.

[Dan Tyack]

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but here's my story:

Use a low watt tube amp to get the great sound. Use a lightweight transistor amp (in conjuction to the tube amp) to get that sound as loud as you need to be.

I use a THD UniValve or BiValve. These amps have a *killer* line out interface. If your amp doesn't have a good line out (and the preamp out doesn't qualify), then you will need something like the THD HotPlate.

For the amp to make the sound as loud as you want, you could use:

A tube power amp like the VHT 2-90-2 (heavy, expensive) plus a speaker

Something like the Crate PowerBlock (cheap, light) plus another speaker

Something like the Furlong powered cab

This gives you the sound you like at whatever volume you need.

[Donny Hinson]

I used tube amps for decades, mostly because they were the best choice for big power. But after hearing thousands of tube amps, and modern solid state amps, I've come to the conclusion that if you take the "sweet distortion" thing out of the picture, solid state amps are just as good, or better. If distortion is in you table of desires, then definitely...go with tubes. But if you want clean sounds and big power, I think it's really imprudent to stick with tube amps. Unless they're really cranked, those "wonderful harmonics" and "warm tones" lead players rave about in tube amps just aren't there.

[Brad Sarno]

Unless they're really cranked, those "wonderful harmonics" and "warm tones" lead players rave about in tube amps just aren't there.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I find that cleanly run tube amps are just worlds more toneful. Sweeter treble, more deep and dimensional midrange, warmer mid and bass. Those harmonics, perhaps subtle, are most definitely always there, even when run totally clean. It's in the nature of how tubes amplify an audio signal.

Even for high end home stereos, many hardcore audiophiles prefer the sound of tubes for the ultra clean sound. I use tube amps for guitar and even when playing completely clean, I simply can't get that same nice sound with an all transistor amp. Tubes just seem to do it better. Or in situations where a solid state power amplifier is required for extreme headroom and clean power, a tube somewhere in the signal path always seems to be a benefit. I've tried and tried, and never been able to find satisfaction in an all transistor signal path.

But that's probably because tubes are so forgiving and tonally enhancing and my limited talent needs all the help it can get.


Brad