The Steel Guitar Forum

Tracy

I will not try to defend most of the "product" that the music "industry" peddles today. It is nothing about music, only marketing. Selling a million CDs and filling big arenas. Most of the fans are so far from the stage, the only way to see the performer's face is on the JumboTron screen behind him, so running around the stage is what passes for stagecraft, but it's the only way to let the audience know there are real people up on the stage.

Before his death Jimi Hendrix was planning a recording project with Gil Evans' big band. Evans was one of the most respected arrangers in jazz, had done projects with Miles Davis, among others. He expressed disappointment after Hendrix' death, that the opportunity was missed.

That's not to say that Jimi could play jazz, but that Evans saw exciting ways to incorporate their music.

Mr. Ritter, I don't know if Robert Randolph can play country steel, but if he could, would he be able to get a gig? Just how many black country steel players can you name? Darius Rucker is the first black male vocalist to hit the country charts in decades. I don't believe any black woman has.

So what's the point of playing or singing a style of music that shuts you out?

Gil Evans has a record of Hendrix arrangements that sounds pretty cool and shows the range of Hendrix's compositions. Miles Davis was really intrigued with Hendrix's music and playing, and recognized the level of musical expression. Davis writes that he was a little frustrated by Hendrix’s lack of music theory, but he had plans to do studio work with him. Based on Davis's acute instinct for taking music and players down new paths to make something new, it would have been great to hear. I can understand how Hendrix's playing can be unimpressive for some listeners, as that has a lot to do with taste and aesthetic, but the studio work and the records he recorded are quite impressive given the technology he was working with. I place the first few Hendrix records with Sergeant Peppers and Les Paul's experimental work with audio recording for what they did with the tools and the technology. It is true art. These guys were working with 4 and 8 track tape machines, old broadcast gear; no computers, digital, MIDI, etc. Even if you don't like the playing and style, you can enjoy and appreciate what those guys did in the studio. I believe that Eddie Kramer engineered those records. I think they sound great, a lot better then the stuff that's coming out of studios now.

Mr. Ritter, ...

Somehow, I think he was making a joke there. Maybe I'm wrong, but that subject has been beaten to death so many times on this forum that I took the big smileys to indicate a joke. I'm reminded by what Johnny Carson said about "needing to make a joke diagram for this crowd."

I don't think we should take these types of differences too seriously. It is futile to expect large groups of people to agree about musical taste. Never gonna happen. Never. I'd say IMHO, but I think that is pretty hard argue with.

I have to agree with what Bobbe said about what passes as music today in general.I have never heard Jimmy Hendrix play, ...

I'm not so keen on a lot of what passes as mainstream commercial music today either. But there's precious little association between most mainstream commercial music and Jimi Hendrix's music, IMHO. Lots of really good modern guitarists were heavily influenced by him, but you won't hear most of them on mainstream commercial radio either. I think it's pretty hard to evaluate Jimi and his place in music if you haven't ever heard him play.

I suspect that a lot of folks who aren't that terribly familiar with Hendrix just go with the stereotype of wild playing, crazy distortion, drug use, etc. However, as was said above, the guy really produced some very beautiful, sweet melodies, with unbelievably creative and innovative guitar technique. I guess I could see where someone who hasn't listened to his first two albums as well some of his later ones - and I would add some of his straight ahead blues playing - could write him off as just a 'noisemaker'.

Of course, if your mind is set to accept only the stereotype, then no amount of listening will change that.

Rich Peterson wrote:Tracy

I will not try to defend most of the "product" that the music "industry" peddles today. It is nothing about music, only marketing. Selling a million CDs and filling big arenas. Most of the fans are so far from the stage, the only way to see the performer's face is on the JumboTron screen behind him, so running around the stage is what passes for stagecraft, but it's the only way to let the audience know there are real people up on the stage.

Before his death Jimi Hendrix was planning a recording project with Gil Evans' big band. Evans was one of the most respected arrangers in jazz, had done projects with Miles Davis, among others. He expressed disappointment after Hendrix' death, that the opportunity was missed.

That's not to say that Jimi could play jazz, but that Evans saw exciting ways to incorporate their music.

Mr. Ritter, I don't know if Robert Randolph can play country steel, but if he could, would he be able to get a gig? Just how many black country steel players can you name? Darius Rucker is the first black male vocalist to hit the country charts in decades. I don't believe any black woman has.

So what's the point of playing or singing a style of music that shuts you out?

Rich call me Bob please You coulda said the same thing about Jimi's race back then too I imagine. Infact his race was what made his act intriguing...It blew peoples minds ..Charley Pride is a former entetainer of the year in country music.

We used to play Little Wing as an instrumental on country gigs. It's a beautiful song, the kind that any songwriter could be proud of.

Bob (Ritter)

So many Bob's here.

I wonder if the antipathy some express toward Jimi is based in race; not the color of his skin, but the culture. The old country and bluegrass singer/musicians were very reserved, even stoic on stage and off. Blues, R&B and soul are openly emotional, and some people can be very uncomfortable with that. Hendrix' music and stage performance were definitely emotional.

I recall my mother being disgusted with Johney Ray's performance on Ed Sullivan, actually down on his knees and in tears as he sang "Cry." He was "a White man singing like he was black" years before Elvis. White gospel music is quite restrained compared to black gospel.

Charlie Pride, however, just stood and sang, which was what country singers were expected to do. And had a killer voice.

b0b,

this may be my favorite version of "Little Wing."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwm-vxGgFf4

Like it or not, he wasn't all loud distorted guitars and feedback.

Listen to "One Rainy Wish", "Wait Until Tomorrow", or "Bold As Love" off Axis to hear what a fantastic rhythm player and songwriter Jimi was. The subtleties of what he does on rhythm guitar are beautiful. It sounds a little dated, maybe, but it seems like it fit in with the times. I'm too young to know for sure, but I loved it when I was in high school and after not hearing it for a few years now, it's still in there.

Here's a demo version of the beautiful ballad Angel - just Jimi and his Strat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-4NuPDpvgc

(For those familiar with the lyrics to this song, it's interesting to hear how they've changed from this demo to the version that ended up on the Cry Of Love album)

That's beatuiful! Hey Seymour, you think you're so hot, post something half this sweet...

That's a really nice acoustic version of Angel. Cry of Love is probably my favorite album by Jimi. I think it showed the tip of the iceberg of where he was heading musically, which made his early demise even more frustrating.

Tom, Bobbe streams lots of sweet steel guitar music 24x7 here: www.steelguitar.net - I think the reason so many of us responded here is that we deeply respect Bobbe. We can discuss different points of view without changing that.

Andrew Kilinski wrote:...it seems like it fit in with the times. I'm too young to know for sure...

It was revelatory for the times. Many of us can remember all the details surrounding our first hearing Hendrix, recorded or live. I couldn't believe all that sound came from three guys. Hendrix sang incredible vocals, and played incredible lead and rhythm guitar at the same time. Who else ever did that?

Deleted.

... just listen and don't watch, you will hear the flat bent notes and generally poor musicianship. That is what Bobbe Seymour was referring to and it is hard to disagree with his assessment.

It's easy to disagree - this is all a matter of taste. I hear people tell me all the time that some of the great blues players bend their notes "flat", and that they aren't good musicians. Have you considered the possibility that he, and they, bent them that way because they wanted to? To my point of view, when playing in a blues-based mode - and rock and roll is heavily based on blues - many non-blues players just bend their blue notes all wrong. You don't have to agree, but that's the way a lot of people look at it.

However Clapton, Beck and Page were already progressing down the path of developing rock guitar as an art before an unknown Hendrix was brought to England by Chas Chandler in 1966.

Hendrix may have been unknown. But with due respect to the "Big 3" - to my view, Hendrix was light years ahead of them at this or any other point. Over the years, I have read these guys argue this same line numerous times, and have routinely extolled Jimi's praises.

As far as Steve Vai goes, I've heard him do several Hendrix compositions. Technically perfect, I thought they were fine tributes - but that's what they were, tributes. Vai and many other modern masters like him are big Hendrix fans, and the debt is totally obvious. Rose colored glasses? I don't think so. 40 years down the road, I see him exactly for what he was - imperfect but brilliant, IMHO.

On the clip - no possibility he might have been targeting his British audience, eh? Everybody talks about him being out of tune - this is a perfect example of him pushing the guitar way past its limits with the whammy manipulations, and then making adjustments when he came back to straight playing. Live TV, no autotune, probably no retakes. Anybody doing this in 1967 would have had serious problems with the guitar. About 15 years later, we figured out how to deal with these problems, since so many people were influenced by Jimi and routinely pushed it like this. Every one of them owes him a debt.

Just as much as you don't seem to like Jimi's vocals, I and many others revere them. He is not from a western music singing (or playing) tradition, but more like a blues singer (and player). The same standards (rules) do not apply. He broke a ton of rules and created a whole new way of looking at this type of music. I understand that some people don't like it - no problem.

Different strokes for different folks? Fine. But when that turns to disrespect and comments like "noise", as it does from time to time, people will say something.

If you get hung up on flat notes in Hendrix' version of SSB then you've missed the whole point. It was a political statement, and obviously a very effective one considering all the controversy and Bobbe's claim that he should have been "arrested and put in jail", nearly 40 years later.
I don't think anybody will suggest locking up Vai for his version.

Listen to the Cry Of Love album, not for guitar virtuosy but for great song writing, arranging. and studio wizardry. It gives a hint of where Hendrix was going with strong elements of funk, jazz and soul.
It's been said that not long before his death he expressed a strong desire to move away from the whole "wild man of guitar" image, learn more music theory and write music for larger band settings.

No one knows what would have happened if he had lived, he would undoubtedly have gone through the same ups and downs as every musician does through a life long career (he would have been 66 now), but to me one thing is crystal clear - Hendrix was a creative force of nature. Keep in mind that he did it all in only 4 short years...

Before I log off I'd like to thank Bobbe (amd Tor Arne) for bringing all this up (hey Bobbe - I'm not getting your newsletters anymore - change my email to steinarATgregertsenDOTcom, the old one is defunkt!).
You see - early this spring I started working on a (mostly instrumental) "Hendrix on slide and steel" sort of tribute album, but because of various personal reasons I had to take a break in the summer and haven't managed to find the inspiration to take up the work again (I have 4 tracks finished).
This thread was the inspiration I needed, I have arrangements for several songs 'mapped out' in the back of my mind, ready to come out - so a little controversy can be a good thing..

Dave is dead right on bending flat. The natural blues scale used by slaves in their field hollers is close to the Western pentatonic, but the notes fall "in the cracks between the keys." That's one reason for slide style playing.

Which makes me chuckle at PSG players fussing about tuning. I just tune everything to equal temperament, to get along with the other instruments which have frets and keys. When I learned long ago that tuning a complete circle of fifths would bring you back home several cents sharp, I adopted the compromise made 300 years ago.

Hendrix spoke the words rather than sang, but then, so did George Burns. And Jerry Reed on many of his hits. I don't look on Jimi as a great vocalist, but definitely effective.

Before his death, he had abandoned the Experience, to return to R&B with his Band of Gypsies. He was hoping to progress as a musician. The transition was aborted by his death. Abuse of intoxicants has cost us a lot of good people.

Some among us on the Forum are not going to appreciate Jimi no matter what the rest say. And some people I know are always going to think of the steel as "that whiney sounding instrument." But I also want to thank Bobbe for prompting this thread, because it has revealed the many different roads that led us to the same instrument. Some of us are pure country, and many are eclectic as all get out.

I have a huge collection of blues recordings. While I willingly accept that total accuracy is not what blues is about, if you play an instrumental piece on guitar and bend and hold a note that is patently out of tune - that is not blues. It's out of tune playing. I can't hear Hendrix playing this particular piece of music as blues as I know it. Sorry.

To say Jimi Hendrix couldn't play guitar is like saying Hank Williams couldn't write a song.

Bob Hoffnar wrote:To say Jimi Hendrix couldn't play guitar is like saying Hank Williams couldn't write a song.

Who said that?

b0b
You should BAN JOey Ace for posting that picture!

Bob Hoffnar wrote:
To say Jimi Hendrix couldn't play guitar is like saying Hank Williams couldn't write a song.

Ken Byng wrote:
Who said that?

Well.... here's three instances from this thread, there are more. Sounds like somebody saying he can't play to me.

He played a bad, one note distorted lead line with no harmony through 12 wide open Marshall stacks. Most people who think this is great don't realize they could do the same thing in a single half-hour lesson if they had the same equipment.

Somehow I can't equate sloppy, inept playing as creative.

...you will hear the flat bent notes and generally poor musicianship.

There's no resolving this. What the Hendrix critics are saying is they don't like him because he didn't play and sing in the slick conventional style they like. Well, duh, he wasn't playing for country, jazz or classical musician pros. He played and sang it wild and raw, the way HE wanted, and the way millions of fans like me loved. He (and we) didn't want perfect intonation - too predictable and boring. Like many blues and jazz musicians from way back, he intentionally manipulated the intonation for emotional impact. It is a tried and true technique, yes, intentional "sloppiness."

Different genres have different ideas about intonation. Oddly enough, considering where all the criticism is coming from here, one of the main complaints of people who don't like country music is that it is off key. Liberties are taken with intonation intentionally for the emotional impact that would be completely out of place in a symphony orchestra or string quartet. There are "legit" classical sax players who strive for perfect intonation, but jazz saxers push intonation all over the place as a form of expression. The different uses of intonation in different styles and genres are so pervasive and obvious it's hard to believe knowledgeable professional musicians are discussing it here in this way.

And thank God he was.
Those that don't like it..., oh well, I don't like the symphony, opera, or Broadway.