The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 1:45 pm**

The one thing we have to remember, just about every show the Dead ever performed was recorded. They encouraged it. When you went to a Dead concert you could request the recording section (near the sound board). How many other bands armature or professional could stand up to that type of scrutiny over a 30 year period? We all have ‘off’ nights and everyone has a cell phone to record it now (Michael Richards rant). But the Dead let the fans record them from the begining (mid 60's), something that should be applauded. IMHO

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 1:57 pm**

Duane Reese wrote: Rather than get offended by someone putting Jerry Garcia or Jimmy Page far above Lloyd Green or Paul Franklin due to ignorance, I'll just realize that it's ignorance and let it go. Most people who hail Jerry's playing as the best probably don't realize what else is out there because it's some of the only steel playing they have ever heard, and probably ever will.

That's all well and good but when I pointed out on a guitar board that while Jerry was a guitarist who dabbled in steel on the side, and there were people who dedicated their lived to playing the steel and were considerably better at it, I was viciously flamed.

I specifically mentioned Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, and Paul Franklin, and somebody else wrote. "If this guy Lloyd Green is so hot, why haven't I heard of him before and didn't CSNY hire him instead of Jerry?"

It's one thing to be ignorant, and quite another to come down on the person who is trying to educate you.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 2:12 pm**

Well Mike, they're just confirming that they are stuck in their own little world, and by their own choice. If they're going to be like that, let them, because anyone who has heard Jerry compared to Lloyd is going to know better.

Just be the bigger man, Mike.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 2:34 pm**

Mike Perlowin wrote:
That's all well and good but when I pointed out on a guitar board that while Jerry was a guitarist who dabbled in steel on the side, and there were people who dedicated their lived to playing the steel and were considerably better at it, I was viciously flamed.

I specifically mentioned Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, and Paul Franklin, and somebody else wrote. "If this guy Lloyd Green is so hot, why haven't I heard of him before and didn't CSNY hire him instead of Jerry?"

It's one thing to be ignorant, and quite another to come down on the person who is trying to educate you.

Mike, every time anything about JG comes up, you write this same exact thing. There are people who want to believe what makes them happy and don't care if it's accurate or not... it's great to try and educate them, tell them about the great players, maybe some will check them out and be enlightened.. for the ones who refuse, accept that you can't change them all... you've got to live with it and let it go.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 3:54 pm**

David L. Donald wrote:If memory serves they were on a double bill with Dylan,
and they just decided to have a jam on some songs...I have also have heard a lot worse live from players.
But none of them were in front of such a massive crowd,
6 months after getting out of a coma...

I understand, David. But my comments weren't based on that clip alone (you see, I heard Jerry before he had that stroke).

For the same reason you have people hailing him as one of the best steel players ever on Youtube: it's called hero worship. The "deadheads" would do that no matter what Jerry said about his own playing. [/qtote]

I know that, Duane. I can't really understand it, but what you say is true. It's the old "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" thing.

He still has the most recognizable steel intro, ride and outro in "Teach Your Children"...done in his prime, after playing only for a short time. It wasn't Buddy, Lloyd, or Jay Dee...it was Jerry. Hurts, don't it?
No, doesn't bother me in the least. I could care less who played on the record. I certainly don't consider it one of CSNY's best efforts, steel or no steel. (Some others must agree, the song never made it to the top-10.)

Donny and Roger...I beg to differ. Even a casual search on the Forum will show that Jerry's been trashed WAY more than anyone else.
That's just because a few have made the (repeated) comment that he was a great player. Say "I think he was a great player", and I don't think you'll get near as much flak. (However, your own credibility may be placed in question by more knowledgeable players.)

I tend to think that that the bulk of the negativity towards him by some here goes much deeper than tone, chops and lack of expertise.
I ask you...what else is there? Okay, he had a unique style. Most beginners have a unique style, and some pros also have a unique style. I'll be the first to admit that style outsells ability most of the time. That's because the masses aren't schooled in technicalities, and have little knowledge about the abilities of players with a different style (i.e., one they don't care for).

Most of what I do on the forum is to try and dispell myths, and there's a ton of 'em! "Garcia was a great steeler", "Hendrix was the world's best guitar player", "Push/pulls are the world's best guitars", "Blankety-blank strings never break", "Solid state amps are junk", "JBL speakers are the best", and on and on and on. This place is full of people who believe that if you don't use what they use, or do what they do, or like what (or who) they like, you're retarded.

I don't get a kick out of "dissing" anything (well, maybe modern country music - but that's for another thread. ). What I do enjoy is giving alternate opinions, and dispelling myths created by people who go "gaga" over some piece of gear, or who are so totally infatuated with some personality, that they can no longer view them objectively (and they despise anyone else who does).

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 4:02 pm**

Donny Hinson wrote: This place is full of people who believe that if you don't use what they use, or do what they do, or like what (or who) they like, you're retarded.

They are all wrong of course. The ones who don't use what I use and like what I like are the retarded ones.

I wish Jerry were still alive. I bet he'd be part of this forum, and would highly respected and well liked by everybody.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 4:17 pm**

Mike Perlowin wrote:I wish Jerry were still alive. I bet he'd be part of this forum...

Boy I don't know about that. These days, you have well known players actually withdrawing from the forum due to all the death-spiral trainwreck threads that keep happening. There aren't very many well-known players who'd come on here if you begged them, and it's getting worse.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 4:18 pm**

Jim Phelps wrote:
Mike, every time anything about JG comes up, you write this same exact thing. There are people who want to believe what makes them happy and don't care if it's accurate or not... it's great to try and educate them, tell them about the great players, maybe some will check them out and be enlightened.. for the ones who refuse, accept that you can't change them all... you've got to live with it and let it go.

Jim, I guess I'm still steamed up over the way I was personally attacked for daring to suggest that Jerry wasn't the world's greatest player. It was a little like the way people turned against the Beatles after John's stupid "We're more popular than Jesus" remark.

I had been an active member of the forum in question for a couple of years, with no problems, and all of a sudden I was called an a--hole and a lot of other similar things, not by one person, but by dozens.

I stopped participating in that particular forum after that.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 4:22 pm**

whats weird about dead fans is they just cannot phathom how anyone could not be into their favorite band "You must have never seen a show" "You must not like loud rock music" "you must be old and like big band swing or something"

no, I just dont like the dead, and yes I have seen em live several times. I could get very specific about what I dontlike about em (thats up to you), but I dont want to insult anyone who does like them.

all that said, Jerry could probably still outplay me on steel even when he was IN the coma. Ive also come to respect his guitar playing and singing thru an album called the Pizza Tapes with Grisman on mando and Tony Rice n guitar.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 4:37 pm**

Well, it's all good.

This Forum is the greatest!

Donny -- I would toss out that just because a record doesn't make the top ten is a "So what!" kind of deal. Who cares? There are lots of recordings that never "made it," but they were still great. The context of the statement was most recognizable. Weren't the best music shows you've ever seen in little places on the back side of nowhere, and NOT the big arenas? Same thing.

Mike P -- I always enjoy your posts. I don't believe you were flamed on THIS forum, though.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 5:44 pm**

Well Mike, they're just confirming that they are stuck in their own little world, and by their own choice.

Gee - that sounds an awful lot like this forum in many ways.

Obviously the people Mike encountered were ignorant of country steel. So what's the excuse when the same thing happens in reverse (I'm not using Mike as an example, by the way. I don't recall him ever insulting anyone's playing.)

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 6:15 pm**

Say "I think he was a great player", and I don't think you'll get near as much flak. (However, your own credibility may be placed in question by more knowledgeable players.)

Brothers and Sisters,

"Teach Your Children" with Jerry Garcia on steel guitar, is one of my favorite all-time steel guitar tracks. It's an instant "volume dial twister" everytime I hear it.

Please quote me.

"Farewell Party" with Lloyd Green is also one of my favorite all-time steel guitar tracks. Same deal; turn it up to 10.

I have many other favorites but I won't bore you with them tonight.

This Jerry Garcia "dissing" thing is really embarassing, friends. I've read it here for years and finally I'm foolishly wading into the pool. But until someone shows me an interview where Jerry Garcia claimed he was a badass on steel, I'll assume he was modest regular Joe who knew exactly how "good" he was on the instrument compared to the masters. I can't imagine he took himself seriously. To me he was just a regular guy who was good enough to play a beautiful, gorgeous, fantastic (again, please quote me) steel part on a little Graham Nash country song that people later liked. It's not Jerry's fault it became a "hit." BUT, at the very moment he played it, he was expressive, light-hearted (with a tip of the hat to Ralph Mooney, I think) and passionate, and added a perfect part to that song. This is what studio musicians try to do on the "jobsite" every day.

His part works for me. I heard it in Publix last week. It gives me chills, as does "Change Partners" by Stephen Stills, which also features Garcia on steel. btw, I'm not a Deadhead but I did attend one of their concerts once.

Steve Fishell

p.s. Donnie, Mike and of course my friend Roger, I've enjoyed your posts over the years so please believe me, no personal animosity is intended from me here. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and I respect yours. Good minds can differ. But this forum is in a rut over this little song and it may be time to talk about something else. Like "Change Partners." (':D')

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 6:57 pm**

Steve -- no offence taken. I've been listening to your work on Juanita with Emmylou...love it. Thanks.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 7:16 pm**

Mike Winter wrote: Mike P -- I don't believe you were flamed on THIS forum, though.

Apparently I offended one member, who shall remain nameless, who has made a few derogatory references to me, but basically it's true. People have disagreed with me on occasion, which is only natural, but nobody has ever really flamed me, and certainly nothing on this forum even begins to approach the invective directed towards me on the other forum when I suggested that Buddy Emmons plays steel better than Jerry did.

People don't have to agree, but they do have to treat each other with dignity and respect. I have sometimes lost my temper and not lived up to that standard of behavior myself, but I try. And I hope that the people whom I've become angry with sill understand that my occasional outburst is not reflective of my general attitude towards them, and forgive me for losing my cool.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 7:29 pm**

Well put, Steve. Good minds can see things differently, and there's surely no clear-cut 'right or wrong'.

It's definitely way past time for us to drop this subject and, for those among us who don't see things quite the same way, to agree to disagree.

Positively my last word on a subject not particularly close to my heart.

RR

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 7:57 pm**

Jim Sliff wrote:
Well Mike, they're just confirming that they are stuck in their own little world, and by their own choice.
Gee - that sounds an awful lot like this forum in many ways.

Obviously the people Mike encountered were ignorant of country steel. So what's the excuse when the same thing happens in reverse (I'm not using Mike as an example, by the way. I don't recall him ever insulting anyone's playing.)

What, like if people on here were making statements about the skill levels of people who play an instrument they don't really know anything about, on a website that's not particularly affiliated with that instrument?

Obviously the people Mike encountered (on a conventional guitar website) were ignorant of steel guitar in general, not just specifically country steel, if they go slamming him down for suggesting that anyone's better than Jerry Garcia on steel guitar.

If there were someone in this forum who was fairly knowlegeble about the theremin, for example, and got rebuked by everyone on here for suggesting that there are people who play it better than Page, simply because the people on here haven't seen anyone else play it, that would be about the same thing.

When has something like that ever happened here, Jim?

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 8:17 pm**

You're splitting hairs Duane. Big picture - Mike encountered a "closed set" of folks with minds made up about who was good at something, and got smacked unfairly for bringing up skilled players those folks weren't familiar with. Mike did nothing wrong, although, for example, I wouldn't go posting about steel guitar players on a speed metal forum and expect to get open-minded "listeners".

But the same sort of thing happens here with RR and JG threads - and it is certainly valid to call both skilled players. Maybe not at the style or technical level of some, but music isn't all about technique. Select members of the "old guard" start calling players hacks, or amateurs, because they don't fit into *their* closed-set group of "real" players (or it degrades into the "it's just noise" type post I mentioned earlier).

You seem to be saying the comparison is invalid because it doesn't fit an exacting set of criteria determined by you, when it was a pretty generalized statement.

Kind of helps prove the point, actually, if you're saying it's justified to negatively comment about steel players here because this is a steel forum.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 8:42 pm**

...much deeper than tone chops and expertise....What else is there? Chosen lifestyle is one that I can think of. And by the way, that is also what drives the prejudice in FAVOR of JG. I'm certain many deadheads can't see Lloyd Green or Buddy Emmons because of their CULTURAL ASSOCIATION. It clouds many, many issues, this cultural association thing. I will say no more.

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 8:51 pm**

I Liked JG, and I highly recommend Mr Fischell's Post for the FAQ page on a separate "Jerry Garcia" section.

The GD put up a better sound system than any I ever witnessed at any live concert.

If they had a failing it was going on late for having to put up the "Walls of JBL" and get it all dialed in perfectly.

I sat more than once waiting a couple hours for a couple concerts to start.

They were worth it.

They seemed to have the same pride in Live Performance that great country shows like Hank Snow, Billy Walker, Faron Young, and others did.

A few of the "new guys" seem to have it too. Brad Paisley comes to mind.

"It's just a box of rain.

I don't know who put it there."

EJL

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 9:31 pm**

Mike P.

I think I said you were overbearing, egotistical, arrogant, shameless, confrontational and opinionated.

All things I consider positive traits..

EJL

Posted: **14 Nov 2007 10:11 pm**

Well Jim, I guess I did indeed figure that since everyone here knows who the player is, and this is a forum of people who actually play the instrument which he is playing in the video, then some of us here might be able to have an opinion about his playing without being as closed-minded as those who don't even know of any other players of the instrument in the first place. But according to what you're saying, that's just splitting hairs, and we are still as closed-minded.

I guess if I wasn't part of the "old guard", I would've realized that Jerry Garcia meant to hit all those sour notes... It's all part of the "style", right? Maybe if I listen to it more, those sour notes will start to sound in tune... Hmm...

Sorry Jim. I'll try to remember that because I happen to think Jerry Garcia not very good at steel, even thought I've heard him and others play, it's only because he's not in what you've called my "closed-set group of 'real' players".

Some things never change... Right Jim?

Posted: **15 Nov 2007 1:38 am**

Eric, Perlowin was talking about me.
But back to the thread, didn't Paul Franklin record "Teach your Children" with somebody, and use Jerry Garcia's intro and solos as a reference point?

Posted: **15 Nov 2007 2:04 am**

Eric West wrote:Mike P.

I think I said you were overbearing, egotistical, arrogant, shameless, confrontational and opinionated.

All things I consider positive traits..

EJL

Eric, I AM overbearing, egotistical, arrogant, shameless, confrontational and opinionated. That's why you and I are pals.

But you gotta admit, That Tele I sent you to check out is pretty nice. It's my current favorite guitar.

Back to Jerry, I think the man deserves a great deal of respect. OK, he wasn't a great steel player, but he was certainly a fine guitarist, and one who achieved a level of success none of us will ever achieve.

It's not his fault that some of his fans are ignorant fools.

But beyond that, Jerry really explored America's roots music and incorporated the music of our American heritage into his music. The Dead took elements from country, blues, bluegrass, old-timey, jazz, etc and weaved it into their music. Jerry's foray into the steel guitar was another aspect of his interest in all aspects of American folk music, and a desire to explore and interpret it.

I can't think of any other rock guitarist who has done that.

Posted: **15 Nov 2007 5:48 am**

Just a little 'levity'.

That was/is a really snappy tele.

Gotta run.

EJL

Posted: **15 Nov 2007 6:06 am**

To close this one out: in my post above I referred to excellent past forum contributions by "Mike" --- but I meant "Mike P" or Mike Perlowin. Mike P. is clearly a stand-up guy and his last post proves it again. As a part-time loiterer over the years here at the SGF, I've learned a ton of interesting info from steelers like Mike Perlowin, Jim Sliff, Donnie Hinson and my Euro-road brother Roger Rettig. Thanks to all of you for your insights. If I ever have trouble with my Fender 400 I may have to track you down Jim.

To Mike Winter: Thanks for mentioning "Juanita." Sneaky's original recording is a masterpiece; He was a god to me.

Didn't he play with the "Birds?" ONLY kidding!!!!

support the SGF,
SF

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