The Steel Guitar Forum

Jim Sliff wrote:yes - actually those were almost exactly what we're talking about. And even though I use a different tuning, it's still the whole principle that works or doesn't, and you're "low tech" versions, with the root note added, are what guitar players are used to seeing. Knowing the root for those "pictures" helps me as well, because I know enough about E9 that it gives me some comparative ideas.

Oh, well then, good!

By the way, the only reason I called 'em low tech pictures is 'cause I drew them with MS Paint.

...and what in the world are you doing up at this hour?

10th fret is home, use any of the pedals, up and down.
Slide into the 12th fret, but don't use the pedals at the 12th fret unless you want to sound more country.
At the 12th fret, use your knee to lower the 2nd string by a half.
At the 15th fret, use the first pedal up and down.

BOb-, no disrespect intended but I dont understand this at all. Perhaps thats why you say you have to repeat it every six months, or maybe im juts dense. Tenth fret is home in the key of E? Tenth fret on what string? use ANY pedal?? what does that mean? If you are all guitar players as you say, then you know what we are asking for, a simple block diagram of the no pedals blues box root position using a fretboard view. (I found it so Im good now, just sayin it woulda been more welcoming to have that in the first couple lessons..no biggie tho...i learned a buncha stuff I wouldnt have otherwise by having to find it on my own, with of course the help of some of the good people on this forum)

I goofed around a little last night and found a few more patterns but because of the "shallow" string intervals on psg, they tend to be more diagonal wedge shapes up the neck than boxes that go straight across the neck. Find a "box" with pedals and it tends to be a straight line across the fretboard. So the box shapes Jim and I are seeking dont really exist in alot of cases it seems(maybe thats why you wont give em to us?...heeehee..and here we thought you were just being difficult!)

Im still never gonna be thinking in terms of scales or modes while playing. Even tho I now know that the blues scale is pentatonic minor, its still gonna be a shape on the fretboard to me. But knowing about the theory behind the patterns will help me find em on strange instruments, hopefully help me cope with these infernal levers and pedals, allow me to communicate effectively with the vast majority of musicians (not guitarists necessarily) who DO know theory, and possibly reveal other valuable insights about relationships with other "patterns" along the way.

I still say hand it to the beginners in a manner they can handle and are used to and you will be seeing lots more and alot happier beginning psg players. my 24 cents.

key of A

..........3......4......5
4.........X.............X
5.........X.............X
6.........~~~X.......
7........................
8.......................X

everyone should kind of lighten up a bit IMHO. Its friday, theres a couple cold ones on ice back at the ranch, and Ive found the blues box.life is good.

James S., yes I meant puta bar behind the A chord and move it up three frets. I've corrected my original post.

But knowing about the theory behind the patterns will help me find em on strange instruments, hopefully help me cope with these infernal levers and pedals, and possibly reveal other valuable insights about relationships with other "patterns" along the way.

(italics mine)

That's very well said, Ben.

If you look at Patrick and Tucker’s tab you see the problem. There IS no geometric pattern on the neck. The bar is at a single fret for the whole scale. That’s the whole point of pedal steel. Geometric neck pattern diagrams will work for lap steel, and for some simple blues licks played in lap steel style on pedal steel. But beyond that they will not work very well. So much of the time the diagram will show dots only lined up on a single fret, and you would have to add symbols to show what the pedals and levers are doing. Tab is just going to work better for so much of the stuff a beginner has to learn on pedal steel. Diagrams like BE used in his pocket articles come back into play in intermediate and advanced lessons where single string bar work is being added around the basic positions.

Maybe for beginners with guitar background (which is most of them), it would be helpful to show major, minor and pentatonic scales on the regular guitar neck, and then show how that all happens at one fret on pedal steel. That would help them understand that you don’t have left hand fingers that can jump around to nearby frets and form patterns. Instead, you have a single straight bar that connects strings at the same fret to be used for scales and chords. If nothing else, that would help them realize why geometric neck patterns are inadequate for learning pedal steel. There is a 3rd dimension that is best demonstrated with tab.

So I’m not saying a few neck pattern diagrams wouldn’t be useful for beginners. But other than a little of this lap steel style blues stuff we are talking about here, those type diagrams don’t work worth diddly for learning pedal steel. The no-pedal root fret position, plus the relative minor with the A pedal down, the IV chord with the AB pedals down, and the V chord up two frets with the pedals down, which is the basis for zillions of country, rock, and blues songs, would look like two lines of dots lined up solidly on every string at the root fret and two frets up. There is no useful geometric pattern. You are not moving your left hand fingers around on nearby frets like on guitar. You are holding the bar on two frets and working pedals and levers. They are two different instruments. The kind of diagrams that work for one are not necessarily going to work for the other. Most people writing instruction material immediately see that and just start of with tab from the gitgo.

So I concede that a few initial neck diagrams might help the transition from guitar to pedal steel; and they cuold be returned to for some specific lessons, such as lap steel style blues playing. But you would very quickly have to changeover to tab, and it is understandable why most pedal steel instruction material (which admittedky is mostly not very professional) just goes right to tab from the start.

Jim S., in James S. defense, he didn’t say knowing only neck patterns was “deficient” or the players who knew only that were “defective” or any of the other words you are putting in his mouth. He said knowing only neck patterns is why “many 6 string players have such a hard time with steel.” That would seem to be the central fact you and the rest of us all agree on, and I didn’t see any insult in that. As usual, you have a chip on your shoulder. You take the slightest disagreement with you as an insult, and start slinging over-the-top insults back, and the thread goes off topic and gets irritating to everyone. As a friend, I’m telling you, your bedside manner sucks. Just relax a little, don’t take offense so easily, and stay focused on the topic rather than getting personal so frequently. “Sheesh.”

easier for me to say than do Brint. That theory is hard for me to take to. Hopefully I'll just absorb some of it slowly, the basic stuff first...

I do better with theory i think when it is applied, rather than abstract.
I took a theory course in college and remember zero from it because nothing was ever applied to an actual instrument.

So I’m not saying a few neck pattern diagrams wouldn’t be useful for beginners. But other than a little of this lap steel style blues stuff we are talking about here, those type diagrams don’t work worth diddly for learning pedal steel.

-I understand this David, but I'm saying if you give us the simple lap steel style blues box FIRST in a diagrtam similar to the one Ive posted, it would in fact be very helpful and then we can get to the pedal and lever boxes which I agree cannot be expressed well in a diagram manner.

Ben, Doug Beamer has a great pentatonic scale lesson on his site that is not only really simple, it is VERY insightful. Here is a link in hopes this lesson will enlightening for you. It really helped me to improvise just learning these scales. His lesson shows 3 different positions in which to play a "blues box". Don’t get discourage just because the pattern does not look like a box, as they do on 6-string. The 3 patterns he demonstrates are indeed the scales we are discussing here and can be used for Rock, Blues, Country or whatever else you might want to play.....Here is the link

http://www.dougbsteel.com/PentPage.htm

yeah thats a good one James.
Your right about the patterns not having a box shape as they do on 6 string. This one from Dougs article I've been using recently (thanks to Tucker who first showed me it) and it does indeed rock.

Here's a handy shortcut for blues and rock soloing on E9: drop back 2 frets with your bar from the "no pedals" position of the chord and press pedal B. That is the minor pentatonic scale with the root on string 7.

but its a straight line not a box, and theres pedals in there, and therefor just not easily represented in the box diagrams Jim and I were used to seeing as guitarists. I get what you guys are saying about how the box diagrams just arent that useful once you get the pedals moving. but for guitarists, i think we need to start with just finding the notes without the pedals at first..the lap style stuff as David called it...it does comprise alot of the blues and rock riffage as evidenced by people like RR's playin. He's making a career out of this "simple lap steel type stuff" on psg and everyone is hailing him as an innovator. not to open a whole nother can of worms here but I dont understand that. To me he's playing standard blues riffage (albeit very well with incredible tone).

David, my beef was with the attitude that it's the wrong aproach, and the insistence that a lot of other information is necessary. The implication that guitar players are looking for an easy way out or are lazy was very clear.

"He said knowing only neck patterns is why “many 6 string players have such a hard time with steel.”

Right - but instead of working within that knowledge and trying to offer the information (pictures) asked for, he decided to show how it's a deficient way of approaching the instrument.

But the point is (that I feel he didn't get at all), we we're talkng about a *starting* point, and while you can add all those other positions and info that's not what the "box" discussion was about. All it creates is sensory overload and more than what's being asked for, as if to prove a point of superior knowledge, which is irrelevant.

start slinging over-the-top insults back

All I pointed out was that the dissing of the box approach wasn't helpful - he reacted with over-the-top fabrications. Who's being sensitive?

As Ben has clearly stated and graphically represented, it's not brain surgery, and it is a DIFFERENT way of thinking/seeing than most steel players take.

I think you can also overcome the "everything on one fret" issue by laying out the block WITH pedal use - if the pedals actually form a pattern more familiar to guitar players, that's a good thing.

It's all about getting more people interested in and comfortable with the instrument, and the biggest draw is going to be people who already play guitar. So if these simple boxes can be shown - again, as a *starting place* - guitar players would be able to comprehend the basics more quickly, and THAT would get them moving to more advanced stuff as well. But there really could be more "common language" (or in this case, visuals) between steel and guitar...or as Ben said, we get lost in word-descriptions of scales and modes, and also in tab, which teaches you songs or riffs - but not positions where you can come up with your OWN riffs.

It was suprising to me that Bob was asked 'what do you mean by your explanation' of 'box' patterns on the neck. That to me was one of the clearest, buttoned down guides to start trying that i think i've seen so far. Your steel won't play itself. 15 seconds of trying it out will put you exponentially ahead of someone who hasnt.

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I'm in the same boat as a previous poster as I don't know theory, I just play what I feel. I don't know that I've ever met anyone who knows theory that could actually play blues. Blues and theory don't mix. It comes out sounding like some hybrid form.

It's the same old debate about what is real blues as it is for what's real country. Playing blues comes from the heart, living it and feeling it. It's not so much what you play but what you don't play. One of the biggest mistakes I hear folks make is playing too much. You have to feel the "Rest" and "Breath" between licks.

I worked with Sam Carr & Frank Frost for about 10 years. Sam or Frank would have looked at you like you were nuts if you had mentioned a pentatonic scale to either of them. They wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. They simply played what they felt.

I spent 2 years playing with Mojo Bufford who was Muddy's harp player for quite awhile. I remember Mojo telling me one nite "Man, you killing me" I didn't know for a moment if that was a compliment or what. Turns out it wasn't a compliment! He said "You need to learn how to play a "Lope" and lay off "Ping Pang Crap" The Ping Pang was Ninth & Augmented chords. By "Lope, he was meaning for me to get that Eddie Taylor sound which was the signature sound behind Jimmy Reed. Mojo don't know no theory or nuthing else but how to blow the reeds out of a harp.

To me, theory would be a great hindrance to ever learning to play blues. You either feel it or not. I see far too many so called blues players who are nothing more than SRV wanna-bes. They just haven't learned to take those deep breathes between a myriad of notes, nor have they done their homework on the Folk/Country, Chicago era Jump & Swing blues greats.

To me, theory would be a great hindrance to ever learning to play blues.

Charles, that's just silly. Would knowing how the engine works be a great hindrance to driving a car?

You can drive a car without knowing how the engine works, and you can play blues without knowing anything about theory. But a hindrance?

Just because you know what a 13b9 chord is and how to play it, that doesn't mean you have to play it. Just because you can play a myriad of notes, that doesn't mean you have to. People make that mistake all the time, but it's not what they know that's at fault.

As you said, it's about what you feel, not what you know, or don't know.

It was suprising to me that Bob was asked 'what do you mean by your explanation' of 'box' patterns on the neck. That to me was one of the clearest, buttoned down guides to start trying that i think i've seen so far. Your steel won't play itself. 15 seconds of trying it out will put you exponentially ahead of someone who hasnt.

Obviously I am trying to learn here and not expecting my steel to play itself, but thanks for that tip anyway. I would love to take well more than 15 seconds and try out bOb's explanation, but I do not even undertsand what the words mean and could not even try it out if I wanted to (which I do). I greatly respect bOb and some of his other instructional stuff that he's laid out, I've understood and its has been extremely helpful and well laid out and is VERY much appreciated. When bOb speaks I listen. I just dont understand the way he's laid it out this time. 10th fret is home, but on what string is tenth fret home in the key of E? I do not understand what "use any of the pedals" means? The fact that you see it as the clearest explanation you've seen and the fact that I cannot even understand the words speaks volumes about the differences in how people (guitarists in particular) learn psg. if you care to explain it to me, Id be very grateful ...do i just go to the tenth fret hit any old string and start mashing any of my pedals up and down? cause thats how Im reading sentence #1.

you can play blues without knowing anything about theory. But a hindrance?

You know, I think I know what he means. In principle, knowledge should never be a hindrance. But playing raw blues requires so much groove, and so much breathing and space, and so much attack, that in the end, the actual choice of notes is almost inconsequential. People who know theory tend to think a lot about the notes they are playing (I know I do), and you almost can't help letting that seep into your playing, which isn't necesssarily a good thing in this case. Anyway, that's what I think he's getting at. I do know one thing, I know lots of musical concepts, but I can't come close to the kind of blues playing that comes out of a couple of fantastic guitarists and a harp player that I play with regularly. The harp player can blow one note for 15 seconds, and say more than any combination of notes I can come up with. Sometimes, it's just a matter that some players are better than other players.

Ben, Assuming you're playing standard E9th:

At the 10th fret, key of E, strings 7 and 1 are the root notes (E).

Pedals A and B down, strings 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10 can be used for basic blues patterns, with pedal A being "mashed" and un-mashed. Fool around with patterns and you'll find blues type licks.

For example, playing strings 4 and 5, pressing and releasing the A pedal is just like playing strings 1 and 2, bending and releasing string 2, at the 10th fret on guitar.

Jeff, I know what he means, too. And it's a true but strange phenomenon that people who develop lots of theory and technique seem to have a hard time "escaping" from it. (I would hate to have John McLaughlin at a blues jam!) And I'd rather be an unschooled player with feeling than an advanced virtuoso without, no contest. But what I'd really like would be to have it all!

I'm reminded of the old, often-quoted, variously-attributed quote--I've seen it attributed to Jimmy Day upon hearing some hotshot player pull out all the stops, trying to impress him: "Boy, I'd love to be able to play like that. And then I wouldn't."

Thanks Brint what you're describing is the same as Doug Beaumiers peice:

Here's a handy shortcut for blues and rock soloing on E9: drop back 2 frets with your bar from the "no pedals" position of the chord and press pedal B. That is the minor pentatonic scale with the root on string 7.

I understand this. I just dont get the way bOb put it when he said

10th fret is home, use any of the pedals, up and down.
Slide into the 12th fret, but don't use the pedals at the 12th fret unless you want to sound more country.
At the 12th fret, use your knee to lower the 2nd string by a half.
At the 15th fret, use the first pedal up and down.

at fret ten in key of E for blues i have B locked down and am bringin the A in and out...what does bOb mean by "use any of the pedals"? I take it he is talking about playing scales across the strings at each of these frets but the root string isnt given, that was confusing to me. what he says next about fret 12 makes sense because using the pedals would yeild a major scale thus sounding more country. ditto on fifteen it makes sense because using the A pedal would give you a minor...I think I get it now...the lack of a root note was the confusing thing and i coulndt tell if this was one scale he was giving or wether he meant play the scale at each of those fret positions...my head is starting to spin...i think i get what he's saying finally..except that "use any pedal" at fret ten ...thats still a puzzle to me.

Yea , i can see where youre coming from better now. Didn't mean to sound like i was rubbing something in. c.

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..except that use any pedal at fret ten ...thats still a puzzle to me.

He's just saying that all the pedals will bring you to different scale notes that will work in that key at that fret.

...I think. I'm not b0b. But then, who is? (big set up for b0b here )

Oh, hey I tried to send you a private message this morning, but I've never tried that function before. Didja get it?

Charles French wrote: I spent 2 years playing with Mojo Bufford who was Muddy's harp player for quite awhile. I remember Mojo telling me one nite "Man, you killing me" I didn't know for a moment if that was a compliment or what. Turns out it wasn't a compliment! He said "You need to learn how to play a "Lope" and lay off "Ping Pang Crap" The Ping Pang was Ninth & Augmented chords. By "Lope, he was meaning for me to get that Eddie Taylor sound which was the signature sound behind Jimmy Reed. Mojo don't know no theory or nuthing else but how to blow the reeds out of a harp.

This is a great example of why it's good to be able to communicate to other musicians in a way that they (the other musicians) can understand. It sounds almost like a joke. (not that there's anything about funny or wrong about the way Mojo plays, and I mean no disrespect to him or you here...)

How long did it take to find out what a Lope was? A LOPE!? Why's it called a lope?

Of course, I think it was Walter Piston who first coined the phrase "Ping Pang Crap" but it's still a pretty unusual reference. That must've taken a while to figure out too.

thanks patrick, got your message and just replied. not sure if i ever woulda notice the message if you hadnt said something. Cheers

I'm in the same pit with Ben, and I think this pretty well returns to the point we've been making.

Draw it in a pattern...make it a picture...do a graphic representation...THAT we can grasp, because we're used to seeing thos ethings.

But when the explanation turns into a "story problem" (the word explanations remind of those hated math nightmares), like Ben my head starts to spin - and tab has the same problem, as you're trying to follow a linear "statement" (whether with notes or words) to figure out an overlay of part of a fretboard.

I keep going back to the picture Ben posted twice of "the box". That's the key.

As far as knowledge of theory and how it affects blues playing, I can see the point that it might be hard to escape overthinking what's correct - and then when you hear John Lee Hooker add extra beats to measures, vary the beat and such you can't possibly play like that, because it's "wrong". But OTOH, if you know theory and can still play with feel and soul, it's all good. I don't agree that knowing theory means you will be a bad blues player. It's all in how you apply it.

Here's a picture. This is not actually tab: it's a diagram of the fretboard:

[tab]
Key of E
Blues Box

fret.10......11.....12......
1...........................
2...........................
3...........................
4. ...X..............X......
5.....X.......X......X......
6.............X.............
7.....X.....................
8...........................
9...........................
10..........................
[/tab]

This is the tab I listed on the last page, with the "pedal moves" converted to "bar moves." This example only shows one octave, but you can extend the notes above and below what's shown.

Actually, I listed two patterns for playing a blues riff in that tab on the prior page. Only one is diagrammed above... but the other position, at the 3rd fret, is almost all open strings anyway. Just replace the "A-pedal" listed in that tab with a 2-fret bar-move.

I want to address a couple of things Ben has asked about.

First, that shortcut from Doug Beaumier for playing a minor pentatonic: he says to drop back 2 frets from open fret, hold down the B-pedal, and the root is on 7th string. You can rock on and off of the A-pedal.

If you look at the tab I put up in a prior post, you'll see this is exactly the same thing I have. I called it "blues" and it's based on the "pedals down" pattern, slid 3 frets up. But we're describing the exact same pattern. It's just two different ways of thinking about getting to that fret.

Likewise, when B0b said that in the key of E, the 10th fret is "home" for playing rock/blues, using any pedal, he's basically saying the same thing as Beaumier and myself. Again, look at the tab I posted on the prior page: bar is sitting in the 10th fret. Root is on the 7th string.

What is maybe confusing is that B0b said any string and any pedal works... I think he is talking about playing ALL the notes in a minor pattern, rather than just selected ones -- the so-called minor pentatonic (or blues as I called it).

Again, look at the earlier tab, under "pedals down" position, the "minor" pattern. You'll see that the minor run uses both the A and B pedal, as well as the un-pedaled notes. All of those tones are part of the pattern.

What isn't immediately clear is that the C-pedal might work too: you could use the C-pedal instead of hitting the 1st string, as I tabbed it. Either way gives you the same note.

So B0b is correct. 10th fret, any pedal gives you a valid note for playing a minor run. Although, if you wanted to play a minor pentatonic (blues), you would probably not want to play ALL the available notes. For starters, you would probably want to keep your foot planted on the B-pedal.

I hope this hasn't muddied the waters...

http://www.midicode.com/tunings/greek.shtml

Check out the above page for a discussion of the "Greek" modes, which were the predecessors of modern western musical scales.