The Steel Guitar Forum

This is a very interesting topic. (Hi Reece, I am slowly getting back into the fold)

There are two things that I would like to touch upon with this subject. One was sort of brushed on by Dave Mudgett about mass and density of the metal that the strings are in contact with.

The other is tuning length and string gauge. These two factors without a doubt change the tone of a guitar.

I sort of learned early in my musical career that if I was going to make enough money to support a family and purchase a home, a full time musical career was not the way to go. So, I went to welding school and became a welder then a business owner of a welding company. Throughout my career I learned a great deal about steel and its structure.

In short, high tensile carbon steel has small amounts of nickel, carbon, manganese and so on. Each of these different combined metals make the steel harder or softer. You all know how lead crystal sustains its vibrations when tweeked with your finger; well, high tensile carbon steel will do the same thing if you tap it with another piece of metal. It just rings on and on and on. If you were to cut a twelve inch pancake circle out of high tensile steel, (for the steelers in here who know this stuff, SA 516 Gr70) hold it in your hand and tap it with a hammer it rings like a bell; however, if you hang that same piece of steel off a piece of wire and tap it again, the sustained ringing lasts almost 70% longer.

For this reason, on the higher quality guitars, most bridges and nuts and tuners are made out of high tensile carbon steel. Those steel guitars that do not use high tensile steel for the nuts, bridges and tuners will most definitely not get the same tone or sustain.

To the point above, hanging a the high tensile steel circle on a piece of wire extends the ringing: I have often wondered what would happen if somehow the bar area that touches the strings was isolated or insulated from the players hand, what would it do for the sound of the strings.

High tensile carbon steel strings???? Nope, it couldn’t work!


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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

As I was playing tonight I found that I use considerable pressure on the bar at times. My hands are relaxed though. Its hard to describe. I only use the muscles I need when I need them.
Charleton wasn't giving me any rules on how to do anything. It was more that he was helping me with a problem I had clutching the bar too hard.

One good way to look at it is how cello players hold the bow. Relaxed and controlled.


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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Here is some stuff I remember from Buddy Charleton regarding the right hand:

<SMALL>4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.</SMALL>

Try to get as much of the fat part of the pick on the string as you can.

<SMALL>6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.</SMALL>

Stick your thumb out as far as you can to get power from the flat part of the thumb pick rather than the edge.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>9. Amount of �pull� pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of �push� pressure exerted on the thumb pick.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Pick hard so you can feel the strings jump from behind the bar as you play.


None of these things should be thought of as rules. These are just things that Buddy told me to help me to understand how to get a better sound.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

I think Reece put down an almost complete list.
Maybe 2 things can be added:
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9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.
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I would like to add the balance between these forces (same force with all fingers, different force on different fingers and thumb).
Another one is timing.


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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Baldwin Crossover converted to SD-10, Evans SE200

Reese,
Thank you for your presence on the forum, we all have so much we can learn from players such as yourself. Most of us understand exactly what your topic is all about.

My original comments were: I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

Since my stated intention was clear, and I created this thread in the sincere hope and belief that sharing my thoughts, asking for others thoughts and focusing together on a specific premise which has the potential to be both insightful and helpful, I have a responsibility to those who have expressed interest and others who might be interested, to remain on target and topic and not create the risk of diluting my original intentions of focused sharing.

I appreciate the input from everyone, but admittedly I hope others will participate by adding to my list of elements, and discussing the implications and parameters of different elements.

I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers, in fact, I have more questions than answers. The truth is, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I however remain convinced that by collectively staying focused we can all learn something together.

There are far more lurkers than there are participants on this forum, and I consider each non-participant as an untapped sourse of valuable input which could help all of us in our search to be the best we can be and enjoy the never ending journey of learning. I have gained many positive and marvelous insights over the years from those who had little or no experience.

Tommy Y....You are an open minded, honest and perfect example of my original intentions. I would greatly appreciate your continued thoughts and input as would many I'm sure.

Reece, if you didn't have questioons,
you would not be looking to discuss
the POSSIBLE answers.

Another interesting element is
bar vs picking hand placement along the strings at different registers, within the same music.

The picking position that gets a nice tone when on fret 3,
might be NOT be the same distance from the changer
as the optimum reciprical tone when playing at fret 10.
If you get a slightly closer to the changer tone for fret 3
the better tone to balance over all, might be farther from the changer at fret 10.

Harmonic resonance points are relative to total string length.
and bar and pick placement can effect that tone.

Thus you might want a slightly higher tonal set of harmonics at fret 3
(closer to the changer)
and move more to the middle of the
string bar to changer distance
for the higher frets,
( slightly farther from the changer)
to create lower register harmonic sets
from the shorter length.

I saw John Hughey play with the Time Jumpers,
and when he was way up the neck ,
I noticed a slight leftward movement of right hand.
I assumed that made his super high notes fatter.

Food for thought.

Reece, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it's "tone"...however, if we dump the terminology and just discuss the practical aspects of hand use certainly allthose things make a difference in how a player "sounds". IMO, the most critical one in defining a player is the strength and speed of each pick attack - slow vs fast; hard vs soft have huge impact on the initial perception of a note.

"Harmonic resonance points are relative to total string length."

I think this was meant to read "total scale length". Resonance points aren't affected by the length of the string, but instead by length of the string *between nut and saddle*. You could have a 100' string, and if the scale length is the same as a 27" string the harmonics and resonance points will be in exactly the same place.

Maurice, when I was about 20 I spent close to a year concentrating on just my hands and the different tones I could get just by changing the most minute things. For me, you are once again correct in your "teachings." While Buddy, Lloyd, Paul, or yourself will sound different on a Fender 400 than your guitars of choice, I'm willing to bet I can still tell "who's who", and that difference is more than note selection.

Over the years I have adopted a rule for myself: Don't take advice from someone who can't do what it is you want to do, and always take advice from those who can!

I can't imagine how anyone could disagree with what Maurice has offered to share. He has attained a level of playing that is beyond what most could ever hope for. If he told me to wear my picks backwards I'd give it a try.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 20 November 2006 at 06:33 AM.]</p></FONT>

Well Randy,you his the nail(with a BIG hammer)on the head,Reese has said what most have said for year's,Tommy White has played probably 10 or so guitar's on the opry they ALL sound basicly the same,Damir Besic your post was well said...Jim the proof is in the puddin my friend...again thanks Reese.....
Charlie....

"Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup."

Reece, I feel that this right-hand element you listed is one of the most important for tone. It cannot be underestimated the tonal varieties that exist between the pickup and the higher frets. This area, in my opinion, is the main space in which one can find an array of expressive tone, from mellow vamping over the 18-24th frets to high-end chicken-pickin' right over the pickup. I am constantly shifting my position in this area to attain the appropriate tone for whatever I am playing, whether it be chordal accompaniment, blues and rock soloing, or 2-3 note passages and fills.

Charlie and Randy:

Guys, please read whatI DID say and not the words Reece put in my mouth. I agree completely with everything except one detail - the word "tone". It's something that is certainly open to interpretation - many of use think an instrument has an inherent, defining "tone" and that a player's "influence" on that isa manipulation...a style...but it can't change the inherent tone of the instrument.

It has a HUGE affect on the overall sound you hear, but the instrument will still sound like what it is.

If you can't hear the diffferences between instruments, I can't help you and that point becomes irrelevant - to *you*.

But please, guys - quit the made-up interpretations and try reading what someone says before you try to argue with it. You're arguing with something Reece made up.

What I **DID** say:

"I don't disagree with your list of factors..."

I agree with the list of influences on sound, and he makes very valid points.

But -

"I further believe, depending on the player, any specific instrument has the distinct possibility of becoming unidentifiable relative to the inherent basic tone fundamentals/characteristics, which can be attributed only to the hands."

I fundamentally disagree with this one, and I'll back it up 40 years' playing and tech experience on many different types of instruments. Steel's not unique - and I'm not alonin the basic premise that you *can't* make every instrument unidentifiable. SOME you can - those with a very generic, middle-of-the-road tone. But if you can take Herb Steiner's wraparound and make it sound like a Red Baron using your hands alone, I'll eat my Fender 1000.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 20 November 2006 at 07:13 AM.]</p></FONT>

From my observations "Tone" is something that no two players will ever totally agree on.

For the most part Reece has pretty much nailed it, lets all get over it.

BTW, I think Jerry Garcia had great tone!

Just my 2¢


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John Drury
NTSGA #3

Good morning all. I useually stay away from these types of debates mostly because of my bad spelling and lack of good grammer. But I do have something to add and it does consern "tone" and "hands".
I've had to play many kinds of venues over the years and have experienced this tonal change come on.
When I play in a comfortible setting and my "hands" are nice and warm and maybe just a little damp, my tone is very pleasing to my ear. On the flip side, if I'm playing out side at night or in a place where my "hands" are not warm and comfortible, I will experience a more than noticeible tone change. I begin to hear to many highs, overtones start to appear, and a complete different tone starts to develope from my "hands"
Now, I know this my or may not be important or of use to anyone but I just felt compelled to share it with you all.

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Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

Bob H....You made an interesting comment which poses a question. "Does using a heavier bar which allows for less downward pressure, provide a less restrictive feel which equates to a tone difference"?

Another question is, "does a larger diameter bar provide a better tone because it possibly has the potential of enhanced bar control relative to bar vibrato due to being "top heavy" when compared to a small diameter bar?

Marco S....Great thought. I would have to believe the finger pick and thumb pick pressures could vary due to mass of the picks, direction of force, pick materials and distance between the fingers and thumb.

David D....You raise a great point relative to picking hand placement. I have always felt I had consistent control of my "feel" by having my thumb to the left of the 24th fret and my fingers to the right of the 24th fret. (in my own mind anyway) It is my belief maintaining seperation of about an inch and a half between my index finger pick and my thumb pick possibly comprimises the difference in pick materials, and the dynamics of pulling with my fingers vs. pushing with my thumb.

I have always searched for consistency, and if one will try placing their picks in the strings and sliding their hand to the right or the left while maintaining the same finger and thumb configurations, (its becomes more evident moving to the left because you can move it far enough to encounter the force I'm eluding too) they will encounter resistance, which for me equates to disorientation of my fingers and encourages mistakes while playing were I to change my pick location.

Jim S....I admire your demeanor, appreciate your understanding, and encourage your continued participation.

Randy B....I'm appreciative and humbled by your comments beyond that which I can express. You are without question a world class steel player, truly one of the greatest to ever hold a bar, and most importantly for me, you're an exceptional person. I consider it an honor and a privilege to consider you my friend.

Jim S....I regret the fact you are of the opinion I put words in your mouth, to which I disagree. Our comments are available for anyone so inclined to read them, and they have the right to form their own opinion if they wish to do so.

As for me, I'm anxious to move forward, learn something, hopefully contribute something along the way, and remain focused on the topic while discussing the instrument we love.

I think that most players that have spent a significant amount of time playing steel guitar already know this even intuitively. Thanks, Reece for quantifying and documenting it for us. In summary, in this thread and other related "tone threads", I have learned the following. These are only my conclusions and others mileage may vary.

Given:

1. Tone is inherent in all guitars and all guitars exhibit a unique tone.

2. Anything you add at the output of your guitar (amp, effects, cables, volume pedal) can influence your basic guitar's tone.

3. Playing style (technique/touch) influences tone and is unique to each player.

Conclusion:

1. A guitar's tone is pretty much fixed except for string changes or pick-up changes.

2. Be cognizant of amp settings and effects and their influence on tone.

3. Tone can actually improve with practice as your technique (touch) improves.

Tone can vary from one song to the next. You're technique (touch/tone) on a ballad can and should be different than an up-tempo song.

Many of us buy different guitars searching for that elusive tone instead of practicing on technique more and thereby bring out the best tone your current guitar has. It would amaze some of you to have a pro guitarist play your instrument. You wouldn't recognize the tone.

As a great steel guitarist, Forrest Gump once said about tone and steel guitars (they edited it from the movie):

"that's all I have to say about that"

Terry

Give 10 artists each a paint brush, a can of blue paint, a canvas and an image to reproduce - such as a nude model (as good an example as any ). They each will produce a painting that exhibits a different style, with factors at play such as width of brush strokes, amount of paint used, shading, and general betrayal of influences. However, each and every one of the paintings will still be......blue.

Fred, what you describe may be more due to the effects of humidity, or lack of it...lower humidity - more highs...higher humidity - less highs. I won't go off into the whys and wherefores. I could see a cooler temperature being an important factor as it would affect muscle control to some degree.

Has anybody come to any conclusions about the tone differences in those new BJS John Hughey bars that are the same size only lighter ?

I seen to remember John saying they sounded the same.



------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Assuming that most players play in a right-handed mode, my experience has shown that the left bar hand is more "obedient" than the right picking hand. The entire bag of subtle "tricks" made possible by various maneuvering or positioning of the right hand, dwarfs the significance of the bar hand. One common discrepancy to focus on is proper positioning of the bar in relation to the frets. It may be found that the lower strings are sharpened by a tendency to pull that end of the bar inward to the center of the instrument. Not to misconstrue this thread's message, but rather to point out briefly a common oversight.

A Fender Stratocaster sounds like a Fender Stratocaster. It doesn't sound like a Telecaster (even though some guys try the Tele pickup on the Strat, it still sounds MOSTLy like a Strat). A Strat doesn't sound like a Gretsch 6118 and nobody playing it with any amp or other accesories will ever make a Strat sound like a Gretsch. A Gretsch does NOT and never will sound like an Epiphone Casino. Its the same with pedal steel guitars. I don't think some players have the hearing ability to distinguish it.

We digress,
into an amp and instrument debate.
This is NOT Reece's intention guys.
He wants to talk about hand technique.
You and the string you are exciting.

Lets get back on subject... if we can.

Jim 2 things
Since you are parsing my words...
Total string length will have an effect.
Above the rollers too.

On the guitar,
ff you can get sound from above the nut
and below the bridge before the tail piece,
then that area IS moving inversely to the main body of the string
and has damping factors to the main body of the string.

On my Bud, I have effected the action of strings
by muting above the rollers on open strings.

Part of Reece's essay was on
left of bar hand techniques
to affect the area of string above the bar, to the nut.
basically ignoring above the rollers..


But my paragraphs ABOVE the phrase you quoted
Should have made the context clear,
it is the total length of string
from BAR fretting to changer I was speaking of.
Have been discussing just that,
I didn't think I needed to be pedantically redundant,
to be clear...

The point, to be returned to is :
when playing up the neck, the strings are shorter,
the harmonics are closer together,
and closer to the changer or bridge.

Also the harmonic content generated
WILL change if you don't move your hand,
but shorten the picked string length.

If you don't move your hand, the harmonic points will shift UNDER it.
You can use this factor to advantage I believe
If you can move your hand appropriately
and get a warmer tone,
as the shorter BARRED length goes more shrill,
then this might well balance getting

a brighter tone by picking over higher harmonics
closer to the changer for bar placement of lower notes.
which have longer string length... to bar.

I do this on bass regularly.
Sometimes every time I switch a string
I pluck in a different place on the string.
To blend the tones better,
especially in less accurate smaller amps.
I do this on Memphis, played on just strings A and D, most every night.

I also did the same when playing C6 last Friday night.

When I went into lower notes, I went closer to the changer.
Higher notes I picked more up the neck.
I thought it was quite useful technique.

I suspect some pro's do this almost subconciously,
albeit minutely, as part of their great techniques.
<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 November 2006 at 11:26 AM.]</p></FONT>

---<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Waisznor on 24 November 2006 at 03:51 AM.]</p></FONT>

The Elements Of Tone...2-3 weeks ago I went with my uncle to a guys house who had a Fessenden steel for sale. He also had a Mullen and a GFI. My uncle had 2 Zums with different pickup windings. I witnessed my uncle playing 5 different steels with same exact amp settings and volume pedal, same picks and hands, and there were 5 different tones. I played the steels also and they all sounded different when I played them, too. TONE has nothing to do with the hands, period. Take a thumb pick, just a thumb pick, no bar or other picks, no pedals pushed, open tuning, stand up to 5 different steels and rake, forwards or backwards, across all the strings, at the same fret on every steel and you'll get five different tones. You explain to me how this has anything to do with TONE being in your hands.