Music Theory - ?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 7 Oct 2005 1:58 pm

A little plug for my buddy Mark . . .

I was at his house recently and got a look at the book he is currently working on. I believe that it has the potential to give steel players an excellent theoretical framework and answer many questions that arise in the beginning and intermediate student's learning process.

Theory doesn't have to be stuffy and abstract -- as a matter of fact, it will sink in much better if it's tied to some specific examples that the student can relate to. I believe that's where Mark's book/course will shine.

Keep us informed, Mark. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 7 Oct 2005 2:11 pm

"theory is just too much work, I just want to play"

Theory is easy. Playing is hard.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 8 Oct 2005 3:37 am

I started learning Psg in 71'. My first real instruction I had was the Niel Flanz Sho-Bud record. In the early 80's I found some of Hughey's material and I think after that the next thing I found was some stuff Franklin had out later on teaching on cassette tapes. Somewhere along the way, I got my hands on some Newman C6th material which gave me a big boost. I agree with a lot of the info that players have posted on theory, ear playing,etc. Personally, I think a player should learn everything they can if they have the time and patients to do it. One of my biggest problems I have now is when I hear something, then I also can play it in my mind usually and then I have a tendency to play it and take it or advance it even further than the way it was done or performed. I'm always tossing around new ways to play songs. Like I said earlier, a player should learn everything they can but what I always have in the back of my mind when I'm playing is, "Am I playing to the people that are here listening and have I touched someone with something, whether it be a Jerry Byrd song , Hank Sr. instrumental or even an intro to 15 Years Ago." Basically, what I'm saying here is that Psg is unlimited regardless of how a player approaches it. It's all good!

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 8 Oct 2005 5:40 pm

Thanks for the explanation Mike. Although it still all seems Greek to me. But, I got your book today so if I study real hard maybe it will sound more like English in a few weeks.

But I ain't totally Theory ignorant. I know from studying Fretboard Roadmaps, a 6 string study book/course, that intervals are distances between notes, and that on the guitar a third is always four frets. so I'm learnin.

Terry

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Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Oct 2005 3:00 am

There ya go, Terry. I knew you knew more than you thought you knew. I know you know what a suspended 4th sounds like; now you'll know what it looks like, and I think you'll find satisfaction in that.
Mike really knows what he's doing.

I think the application of theory is harder on steel than any other instrument. It's not laid out in simple fourths like a bass, and you've got to know what your feet and knees are doing. I get tremendous inspiration from guys who really know their way around, and it keeps me trying.

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 9 Oct 2005 3:29 am

It seems to me that a good course in "theory" (and no I don't know it), would start from the most simple, point "A" and continue to and through the more complex, like mathematics. I don't know if I could develop the drive, myself, at this point in my life to master it, but I would like to have a better perspective.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 Oct 2005 6:57 am

Who came first?
The pickers.

But then... SOME got to asking :
why does this work, and that NOT work...(Hmmm??? scratch head here)

THAT WAS THE BIRTH OF THEORY ;
As a way to understand what they were doing,
and also communicate that understanding to others.

After you understand what you are actually playing,
then it becomes an aid to FIND new paths for your ideas.
As Jeff L. said ;
it explains the universe to some extent,
and allows for further directed explorations
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 October 2005 at 08:08 AM.]

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 9 Oct 2005 10:10 am

mark, i like the way you explained that, it's like looking at your fret board while learning something, kinda like connecting the dots. it's easier for me to learn theory that way than reading it. hands on aproach.
roger francis

Terry Sneed · Post by **Terry Sneed** » 9 Oct 2005 10:17 am

Charles Curtis, I recomend Mikes book. I just got mine yesterday, and he explains it in very simple terms, along with examples using the notes on a keyboard. I'm 55 yrs old, and I've made up my mind I'm goin to learn this stuff one way or the other.

Terry

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Mullen D10 /8x5 / session 500rd/ American Strat Highway 1 model
steelin for my Lord

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 9 Oct 2005 11:43 am

This might be tangental, but I most prefer to listen to guitarists who started out in the bars and cover bands and then went on to pick up some schooling. There was a whole crop of early graduates from the Guitar Institute of Technology in L.A. that I find unlistenable, and now they're teachers there. In contrast, people like Steve Morse, Eric Johnson, and Julien Kasper started out learning both the notes and the passion behind them on their Hendrix and Beck LP's and haven't ever unlearned why they love to play.

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 9 Oct 2005 1:41 pm

Ray

You've been eating too much chocolate fudge!! haha

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http://www.steelguitar.ca

George Keoki Lake · Post by **George Keoki Lake** » 9 Oct 2005 7:59 pm

Skip...Just too much to read in this thread. Anyway, from what I have heard coming from your steel guitar, if you don't know theory, et al, then don't ruin things! You play great for an "ignoramous" !!!!! I know a bit of theory but I sure can't play like you !

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 Oct 2005 10:25 pm

I have one of the early grad from GIT on my last jazz album,
and his stuff 15 years later is quite warm and melodic.

Some people have an strong apptitude to study dense material and learn it cold.

But still don't have the intuative facility to put the heart back in over the layers of technique.

So that squares with Dave M.'s comment about bar band cats,
who later learned more theory,
being more listenable.

If you can play with heart, then the theory helps you find more things to say beautifully.

Terry S. great move at any age.
Who says you should stop learning at ANY age!.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 09 October 2005 at 11:26 PM.]

Alex Cucheran · Post by **Alex Cucheran** » 10 Oct 2005 3:47 pm

RAY
Did you know that if a whole diminished chord married an augmented chord, their offspring would be a minor 6th chord?
Alex

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Oct 2005 3:55 pm

I know just enough theory to hurt my pickin.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 18 Oct 2005 8:52 pm

THANKS to everyone!
A lot of expertise has been shared here and I truly do appreciate your responses.
THANK YOU to "Keoke Lake"....you are too kind.
Don Denoit..........I need a refill. That fudge was great and I'll do anything to keep the lines of communication between you guys up north and us'n's in the south. Take care Cuzin'.

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 28 Oct 2005 3:44 am

I took music theory classes at WMU shortly before discovering the steel guitar. I know that it helped me when I started playing steel. I think it would have been better if I had the steel guitar in mind while studying music theory. I also hated the math side of it.......

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 28 Oct 2005 8:25 am

Where else can anyone go and have access to this much expertise? Amazing!

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 28 Oct 2005 11:59 am

There is a lot of great information and advice in the above posts. I haven’t had time to read all of them, but most of those that I have read seem to be talking about either INTERVALS or CHORD CONSTRUCTION.

My post is not intended for those who know music theory, but rather for the reader who does not know music theory. For the sake of those who are new to theory, let me say that there is a lot more to music theory that just these two sub-categories of theory. I think that the reason a lot of people are scared off by theory is that some of the deeper aspects are very hard to grasp unless you have a good one-on-one teacher and have a great amount of time available for study.

My recommendation to steel guitar players is to first learn SCALES, then learn CHORD CONSTRUCTION (i.e., how to chose the right set of notes to make up a chord when you only know the name of the chord) and CHORD ANALYSIS (i.e., how to name a chord when you know the notes it is comprised of.) I don’t believe that a musician can become really proficient on his/her instrument without some knowledge of chord construction and analysis – regardless of whether the instrument is a steel guitar, piano, or any other instrument capable of playing 12 notes per octave.

I have taught “chord construction and analysis” to a large number of musicians over the years. The trick is to take it one bite at a time so the student does not become overwhelmed. Once one knows know how to find tones 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 of the major chord scale (do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti and do) then one can start with the simplest of all chords: the major chord triad. The student should learn that that a major chord triad consists of the 1st, 3rd and 5th tones of the major chord scale. The rest of the chords are built upon this simple triad; for example: a sixth chord consists of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 6th tones of the major chord scale; a minor chord consists of the 1st, flatted 3rd, and 5th tones of the major chord scale; etc. etc.

Yes, intervals, modes, sight-reading, etc. are important – but nothing in music theory is quite as important to a steel guitarist as plain old chord construction. Also, I believe that an understanding of chord construction gives one a basic knowledge of (or at least a foundation for learning) intervals.

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Doug Childress · Post by **Doug Childress** » 28 Oct 2005 12:36 pm

My theory is that written music is a code that is taught and used in order to allow musicians to play specific songs to sound like the writer intended. This code can be altered to be anything that is agreed upon by the users. It is a written communication with symbols that denote what is to be executed. Keys contain chords which have specific relationships to each other numerically (1, 4, 5, 2m, 3m, 6m, etc. Chords are made up of notes which have specific relationships(1,3,5,7,9,11,13, etc). The notes that you change within the major chord is what changes the name of the chord. Since the steel guitar is tuned to an open chord your biggest problem is making sure that it is in tune. From there it is finding the major chord intervals or using the pedals and levers to move notes up or down to change the chord structure. I studied music as a boy (piano) and I relate everything I do (regarding chord structure and note intervals)to the piano keyboard. The reason being that with a piano you can see everything that you are doing. I prefer the Nashville system when playing charts because once you learn all the positions in one key, you can transpose simply by moving the bar to a different set of frets and playing the same inversions and intervals. Also it helps to talk to good players like the ones here on the forum.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 28 Oct 2005 2:03 pm

I believe that an understanding of chord construction gives one a basic knowledge of (or at least a foundation for learning) intervals.

I beg to differ. I think you need to learn about intervals first, the learn how chords are made by combining them together.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 28 Oct 2005 2:47 pm

Is it at all possible to play commercial quality music on steel without knowing this THEORY stuff?

Every time I sit down with Ernest.......and try to absorb some of this stuff, I get overwhelmed and thus intimidated by all of it. Anyone else experience those feelings?

So much theory and so little time!

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 28 Oct 2005 6:48 pm

Is it at all possible to play commercial quality music on steel without knowing this THEORY stuff?

Hard to say Ray, But I suppose it is possible.

There is a whole course of instruction right here on the Forum with the excellent advice given by so many with their many insightful posts. I read every one of them.

I will echo what so many have said. Learn to read notes and learn the intervals.
A Harmony and Theory course and Chord construction. Try to develope good Relative Pitch, Steel players are a natural for this.

Don't get too bogged down with the notes and theory, just enough to help you along with your playing......Goodnight....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Oct 2005 11:47 pm

In reference to Roys comment:
I guess some of us have just assumed that scales are seen in their rightful place in the heirchy automatically.

How it stacks up. Bottom to top.

Melodies derived from the below / or created and then the chords derived from the melodic information.
[I work both ways, depending on situation]

Scales / interval groupings played over chords
[This can also include parrallel harmonizations too ]

Chord construction.

Scales ( groupings of intervals)

Intervals

A note

If you start at the bottom you can eventually arrive at the top.
[ baby steps are perfectly fine]

You can also start at the top; a melody.

But WITH theory it is easier to construct the background to best support your melodic invention.

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 29 Oct 2005 12:27 am

Up kinda late arent we?

If someone will learn the diatonic scales
(scales derived from the major scale) the scale tone chordings will fall right in place. Then one can see why the 2 chord is minor7 and the 5 dom7 etc. The function of tetrachords and the circle of 4ths (5ths) and the relation to the key signatures is also helpful to someone who needs to read. An understanding of diatonics also will enable you to use one scale in many applications with reharmonization. Also known as the 7 modes of the major scale. Almost anything you will ever need to know can be extracted from this, if not it can be extracted from another scale like the melodic minor. Find a teacher who can take you here and you will be able to unlock it all period.

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Got Twang ?

Mark