All beginners and students please read this.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 28 Oct 2005 4:42 pm

Simple solution.

Those who can afford to buy new, please do, or consider doing so.

Those who cannot and are on a budget, but have the determination to learn, it's ok to buy used.

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 28 Oct 2005 5:12 pm

Mike's not trying to destroy the underpinning of capitalist society by forbiding anyone to buy a second-hand lawn-mower from their brother-in-law, and he's not trying to be the boss of you...

He's just saying that someone in this comunity needs help, so help them if you can...

(Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth Mike--that's just what I'm getting from all this.)

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 28 Oct 2005 8:09 pm

"Gosh, this thread is so infuriating...
What Mike is saying is that Jeff Newman's widow could use some help, so if you get a chance, buy the books directly from her.

Is it so hard to understand???"

Yes, it is incredibly hard to understand for people who have never heard of Jeff Newman and who might be in the habit of buying used instruments, books, or other items on occasion.

That post again shows the closet full of people who refuse to understand that there are more than 10 folks hanging around here, and many of them have never heard of the guy - or want to.

And the "we meet in..." is irrelevant, because WE don't - a small group of YOU do. Sure, it's great to make friends...and I feel I already have made some wonderful ones here who have offered me help asking nothing in return...but we're not "isolating" ourselves when we live 1500 miles away from events, are beginners , and don't have unlimited resources. And as far as "missing out" - some of us just detest "clubs" and conventions. And when we read descriptions like "The Buddy Cage Debacle" we realize how much we just don't fit in with a lot of you anyway. No, I don't own a pair of cowboy boots or a bolo tie...or a Stetson. I do have a good pair of Uggs and a nice Burrito Brothers T-shirt, though.

Believe me, I support the "boutique" sellers. If you saw my six-string collection, you'd probably not have a clue who any of them were made by, just like I'd never heard of you or most of the other steel "boutiques" (whether teaching materials producers or instrument makers). But the arguments against sales of used items don't hold any water, because all they do is BUILD the market, not SUBTRACT from it - especially when those items are purchased by less experienced players. Arguments against used teaching materials sales are ridiculous from a marketing and economics standpoint.

Simple fact - Jeff Newman's courses are really expensive. I have NO idea what they actually consist of or if they would be helpful for someone like me, who isn't looking to play Nashville Country. So there's exactly zero chance of me buying one new (even less with the lack of Paypal, as I mentioned before. That issue still puzzles me to no end). But I'd probably dip my feet in the one called "up from the top" (or something like that) if I could find it used. If that proved valuable, I'd feel obligated to buy a new copy of something else. I think a lot of people think the same way.

But I'm not going to throw away dollars at full retail on something that's a complete unknown.

As far as the "touchy feely" stuff, I give an enormous amount (to me) to charities of MY choice. Is that OK? Or do I need to also just send a check to "Fran" and everyone else who self-produces materials because I play the same instrument?

I'm sitting here having a cluster of "them and us" moments when I realize the ONLY things I know about Jeff Newman is that he wrote some instructional materials, must have passed away, and has a widow named Fran. I'd never heard of Jimmy Day before I got here and still haven't heard his playing, to my knowledge. I'd seen Winnie Winston's name on a book that I bought and found incredibly dated, only to buy Dewitt Scott's book (had never heard of him either) only to find that one even more ancient-feeling. I'm still looking for instructional materials not based on playing "Red River Valley" and other moldy figs.

I'm not a young guy (53) but new to the steel. Some of you know it was kind of "forced" on me by a hand problem, but that's not important. The point I'm making right now is that there seems to be a closed group of older folks who can either support newer players and grow the entire market, or ridicule them and run them off (I give you the ever-popular Jerry Garcia debates). Circling the wagons about used instructional materials is a great way to run folks off - and help the instrument shrivel and die.

Is it any wonder most instrument producers last only a short time in the business? The "old guard" doesn't want us uppity, outspoken non-traditionalists around...so you drive us away and kill the instrument - one note at a time.....

I'm not leaving. I've found exceptions (and pardon the mispellings and huge apologies to anyone I've left out) in Roy Ayres (one of the most wonderful gentlemen on the planet, who has been teaching me theory via email for nothing, because he "gets" it....he wants things to grow). Bob Carlucci, who is almost as crazy as I am. Billy Carr, with tips and gear swaps. Al Gordon, who got me the 400 I'd wanted for decades. Steve Gambrell, who in a lot of ways is more "me" than I am and gave me parts for free that allowed me to play an unplayable instrument. And my friend Harry Sheppard, who has teamed up with me in creating two of the wackiest Sneaky Pete tribute guitars ever made - we sort of inspired each other into parts of the ideas, and he put my ideas into physical reality. And I give credit to Mike Perlowin. We disagree completely on this topic and the (what I see as) stubborness that surrounds it - but he takes the instrument to places I can only dream of, and I admire his desire to break out of pedal-mashing and copying Curly Chalker (whoever he is) licks.

So folks, don't push away newer players. Try to understand that steel is a "musical" instrument, not a "country" instrument. Embrace a few new things, try a few old ones (like us Fender freaks) and just have fun. Share your knowledge (and old, unused materials) with newer folks and help the instrument grow.

That's what I'd like to see. Idealistic? Sure. Impossible?

Only YOU know.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2005 at 09:12 PM.]

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 28 Oct 2005 11:55 pm

I helped Fran out,but it was because some one gave me a used Jeffran course and it impressed me so much that i ended up buying $400 of new stuff since then. If you can afford to buy new,then do so if you wish. If not, used purchases may still lead you to a new course you want .

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 29 Oct 2005 2:33 am

Pretty much agree with Jim (except for a couple of his side points), although see nothing wrong with buying new if you have that kind of money. I've bought new when I really wanted something and just coudn't find it used, which does happen occasionally.

Frugality can also be a virtue...

When I was in St. Louis I picked up a bunch of stuff from various dealers, and had originally planned to buy something from Jeff Newman. One look at the prices and I never came back.

Nothing wrong with making an appeal, but I'm not convinced there has been a very strong moral argument made to buy new from Jeffran. Stronger rhetoric is needed if you want to overcome the power of money!

-Travis

P.S. re: buying new if you have money, used if you don't—I basically agree with this, except that even if I did have more money, my dollar still goes further buying used. Now if I was really wealthy...

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 29 Oct 2005 2:56 am

Te real stickler here to me is, I purchased " second hand" instuctional material off of some of the people in this forum that are moaning about the sale of "used goods". I guess the code of ethics has changed in the last couple of years! peace, and "Love Everybody!" bob

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 29 Oct 2005 3:38 am

Help: I have a conundrum. (No, it's not for sale.)

I got 'Right Hand Alpha' with my psg, used, from the seller. I watched it and got what I could from it.
I bought Joe Wright's 'Pick Blocking' at the recommendation of a forumite. Another forumite had a copy he was done with, and I bought it for $10 (and I wouldn't have paid full price for it).

Now, a fo'bro wants to buy 'Right Hand Alpha' I'd like to sell it for $10--that pays for 'Pick Blocking' which I'm still using.

What should I do?
Confused

[I think it all goes around and comes around, and that's what this community is for in part, disseminating instructional materials for beginners etc., minding that a budget economy is different from a new one, etc... my $.02]

Thanks, Mike, for starting a very interesting discussion on intellectual properties. Makes one think, but I sure don't want to hang on to every CD and tape I have, when there's someone else who could use it after me.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 29 Oct 2005 3:46 am

deleted[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 29 October 2005 at 03:15 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Oct 2005 3:54 am

Mike is not telling anyone they have to do anything. He's making an appeal to one's conscience. Maybe people don't like hearing someone preach to them about doing "the right thing" when they disagree on what "the right thing" is.

Bottom line to me is that there's nothing wrong with buying a product used or new, regardless.

Though I make the most bucks from selling something direct to my customers, I have no problems with anyone buying any of my original stuff used. They bought it, and it belongs to them. If it works for them and they like the product, they'll want more of my stuff and hopefully will contact me directly. Or if that's not the case, purchase from b0b here on the Forum, Al Brisco in Canada, or someone else who handles my products.

I understand Mike's feelings about this, and I applaud those who do support the creators of this material by purchasing new. It's a matter of personal choice, with no "right or wrong" to it, or for that matter "right or left" to it. I have no problem with either decision, like I said.

Human nature and the desire to save a couple dollars can sometimes be a *weird* thing, though. I try to price my products competitively, rarely is any of my stuff over $20 or $25, rhythm tracks are less. What's the price difference between a new and used copy (after shipping)? Ten bucks? There was a fellow who recently posted and said he's looking for some of my stuff used. I mentioned humorously that I had several copies laying around here somewhere

if he wanted one, but got no response.

If he found a used one, great... but did he not get the benefit of owning the product because he wanted to save a couple of bucks? Again, it's his choice. I personally feel that the person who buys my stuff benefits far more by the material they could learn if they applied themselves than I benefit by them giving me a 20 dollar bill.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 29 Oct 2005 4:02 am

Charlie,

Tell us more about your conundum!

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 29 Oct 2005 4:15 am

the "appeal" if that's what you want to call it was to "beginners", for those are are a little more seasoned I guess buying used is ok?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Oct 2005 4:37 am

After reading Jim Sliff's very lucid and well-reasoned original post here (see previous page), I confess that I've changed my thinking on this issue.

I never argued against the selling-on of used materials on principal (that's clearly perfectly acceptable), but I had been harbouring a notion that players who get at least a part of their living from their instructional materials deserve special consideration, and a sort of 'buffering' from the commercial realities of life.

I don't think Mike P. intended to stir all this up, but the end result in my case has been to clarify MY thinking on this issue.

Good post, Jim.

Roger Rettig
(IF anyone has the patience to see what I first wrote

, you'll find it in the early part of this thread.)

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 29 Oct 2005 4:42 am

A 'PS'...

I singled out Tommy White in my 'post', because I found his musicality to have a special appeal to me, especially that wonderful 'stream of conciousness' ad-lib section at the start of his E9th tape; I've been hoping for more of that ever since I first heard it, hence my desire to hear him 'noodling' away on C6th, and as far away from 'country' as you can get!

RR

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 29 Oct 2005 9:13 am

It's a snare conumdrum, used for trapping possums.

I think it's good that someone raise the issue of intellectual properties; it's good to re-examine our ideas.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 29 Oct 2005 10:30 am

Hmmmm... I've been mulling this one over for a few days before commenting (I know, I should do that more often, yeah, yeah...)

I too sympathize with Mike's original intent, that we are a community and need to support each other, especially in our times of need.

But, I do hear and appreciate the viewpoint that the "steel guitar community" does not necessarily include everyone who visits the Forum! Some are newcomers to steel guitar, looking to get started, get some info., buy their first guitar, etc., etc. Some have no idea who Mike's (and my) icons of steel guitar are (Chalker, Newman, etc.) and that's okay. They don't "have" to know that if they don't care to. If they hang around other steelers for long, they'll pick it up eventually.

But who is this "steel guitar community"? Well, it's whoever chooses to identify themselves in that way; membership is not mandatory! I think the bottom line is that those who choose to participate in the community to such a degree, attending shows, online, visits, jams, etc. that they get to know the various people personally, as friends, will feel it in their hearts to support them in their times of need however they feel is appropriate, just as they do with other friends.

Jeff Newman was a personal mentor to me and I love Fran Newman dearly. But I sure can't walk up to a stranger on the street who's never heard of either of them and say, "Hey YOU with the steel guitar in your shed! You need to treat Fran Newman like family!" Those of us who know her and love her will do that naturally; those of us who don't really shouldn't be expected to.

One final point I think should be made is that it is the presence of the used market that keeps people inventing new stuff that they can sell at a fresh, new price. If someone buys a used copy of one of Herb's courses and likes it, they may be motivated to check out what else he's got, and buy that one new. Or when he announces the newest course release, they may be first in line to get it themselves, paying full price. (Of course, the fact that Jeff can't replace his product line with new stuff makes that situation different and one reason why many of us try to support Fran a little differently than we might Brother Herb, who needs lots of motivating to get stuff done. Speaking of which, has anybody got a used copy of Herb's "Swingin' on E9" they don't need anymore?)

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 29 October 2005 at 11:34 AM.]

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 29 Oct 2005 12:53 pm

This is really a good topic here. My final thought on buying new/used is if someone pays for something or even if it's a gift, then it's belongs to them and they can do whatever they want to with it. I keep an open mind and read everybody's comments. Some I agree with and some I may not. Everybody has a right to there own opinion. But I have seen something in some of the post that I think might help some of the newer players especially. Players like Jimmy Day, Curly Chalker and Jeff Newman as well as others are an important part of steel guitar history. There's so much there to learn from these guys. For the newer players out there just take a little time and study or listen to some of these guys and the things they played. Personally, I'm a Hughey/Green/Emmons and Tharpe man. All I'm saying here is once a player starts learning about the history of Psg, they'll find the info is unlimited. This is only my opinion here. Nothing more.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 29 Oct 2005 2:15 pm

Jim Sliff : Your make some excellent points , which are well taken . I`d like to comment on your " them and us " observations. My opinion, the steel community is a broad , diverse segment of society. If you ever have the good fortune to go to a major show, ( and I hope you do ) You may find it only to consist of " us " . If you dig steel , your one of "us". You`ll likely find that all the vendors and artists understand the majority of the community they serve is more than the small number of long time players/forumites , but are smart enough to encourage new blood .

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Oct 2005 7:20 am

Jim Cohen, very well put. The used market as a portal of entry for newcomers does indeed support the new market. A rising tide floats all boats. It's not a case of being penny wise and pound foolish. What goes around, comes around.

Regardless of what the purchaser paid for a course, new or used, the material has to be applied to be of any value. Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

For that matter, it ain't over til the fat lady sings. A stitch in time saves nine. Y'all get my drift, I'm sure.

Heck, if writing courses were as easy as quoting platitudes, I'd be a freakin' university by now.

Speaking of which, has anybody got a used copy of Herb's "Swingin' on E9" they don't need anymore?

Jim, I think I have a few copies laying around here somewheres.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Oct 2005 10:08 am

I think we'd have better luck convincing people not to sell used courses, than convincing them not to buy at a lower price. Did you get your money's worth out of the course? If so, why are you trying to get a refund?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 30 Oct 2005 11:20 am

"Did you get your money's worth out of the course? If so, why are you trying to get a refund?"

It's not a refund - that's quite a reach. I'm not trying to get a refund when I sell a used guitar either - and I got use out of it.

Sorry, that one really didn't correlate at all to the "used market".

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 30 Oct 2005 11:34 am

Well, lets see... Then if you gave the used CD or Tape to somebody, it would wrongfully give the recipient the general idea that they were worthless..

At least with accepting money for them, the injured parties or their minions could in the future hunt the seller down and harrass /shame him/her into contributing to the families of the original authors, should calamity befall them..

The nightmare never ends....

Just when playing this thing was starting to make some sense..... -Intermediate Steel Guitar Student-

The more of this inane stuff I read the more I am against copyright laws period...

Or coming out for applying them to all actually productive trades and walks of life..

EJL

tbh. you'll pay...

[This message was edited by Eric West on 30 October 2005 at 01:01 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 30 Oct 2005 2:33 pm

O.K., b0bby Lee's comment got me off the fence. Because I didn't know better, I bought several courses when I first got my steel, only to find that it wasn't particularly related to how I learn or to what I like to play. I read music (slowly, slowly on steel) and I am more interested in learning certain classical pieces to get an idea of how melodies are constructed by people like Bach and Beethoven than I am interested in learning how to play a 4/4 shuffle in a bar band. My ear training come courtesy of Duane Allman, Miles and Ali Akbar Khan, more than Buddy, Paul, Curley et alia. There's nothing wrong with that music - I like that too, what I've heard of it - but my time is limited and precious, so these courses gather dust on the shelf. My funds are limited enough that I would certainly want to get something for these courses, if only to convert it over to something else more useful to me like some new CD's. (Do musicians who record CD's deserve to get paid? I have to sell stuff to buy stuff, even if you include my work as "stuff".) Will I get assassinated if I list some used courses for sale on the forum, one day when I'm feeling particularly poor and/or short of shelf space? b0b, you want to trade some CD's for some old-yet-virtually-mint courses?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Oct 2005 4:15 am

Did you get your money's worth out of the course?

And if I didn't..?
Not every cd I buy is for me (and I don't buy many), but I buy it to see, and trade it in if it's not.
How is this different?

The main difference I see in philosophy is whether you're the buyer or the seller.
Thanks Dave Mason; good argument.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 31 Oct 2005 9:24 am

Although I see the merit in the idea that the "course producers" are "in the family", and deserve as much of our support as we can give, I also grasp the perspective of someone who's not aware of the names and history of these folks.
I also have trouble separating courses from other tools. All of the Steels I've owned and most of the effects pedals and amps were built by small companies or solo builders. (I think of those steel builders as "in the family") Frankly, I can't afford the prices of most new Steel guitars and have bought every one of mine used, usually enabling the seller to buy a different, (often new) guitar. I would not have been able to try so many brands buying new, and wouldn't have the outstanding (pre-owned)Mullen I play now.

I only bought the brand new Walker Steel Amp I use after buying one used and loving it, and have since sold that used one to another player. Should I have kept that one on a shelf?
I've also gone through a million overdrive pedals looking for the sound I want, most of them used...

Certainly a course is a smaller purchase, but many buy quite a few courses and it adds up. I'm just saying they're all tools...
And do the rules change for out-of-print stuff? There seems to be a constant ebay market for the old Sho-Bud courses, a lot of people seem to want those. I'd also be curious how many players got a jump start by finding a used copy of Winnie's book.

(For those newer players finding the Winston book, or Scotty's E9 books, to be filled with "dated" material, realize that it's very cost-prohibitive to use songs and material not in the public domain, and also find examples that most people have heard or recognize, hence the "Red River Valley" syndrome. If you can get over the "staleness" of the tune choice, you'll find that both of those books have some very tasty arrangement and melodic ideas which will go far in any musical genre, as well as clearly demonstrating what the tuning, and some of the pedal combinations are capable of. I still use licks and ideas I got from Winnie's book 25 years ago in every rock, pop, and funk gig I play today. Sometimes even in country.)

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 31 October 2005 at 09:31 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Oct 2005 9:32 am

When you sell a used course, you retain the knowledge gained from the course. You can continue to use it forever.

When you sell a used guitar or amp, you no longer have the use of the equipment.

To me, a course purchased and used as intended is knowledge purchased. It's a unique category. That's how I see it.

I spent $75 to go to a Jeff Newman seminar. Should I be able to resell that, too? I see instructional materials as seminars in a box.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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