The Steel Guitar Forum

Maurice Anderson better watch out. This one time, at band camp, me and Bobbe Seymour got into it big time, because he said my tone sucked, and I said it didn't, and he said it did. Well, we went to rollin around on the floor, and rolled out into the parking lot with every one looking on. He's a biter!! I had to hit him with my 15/16ths BJS bar that I had rolled up in my hand (just in case) to get him to let go of my shin bone. Yanked out a piece of his $3000.00 hair plugs on top of it. Yes siree boy. Bobbe is one tough cookie. Maurice better get himself a good set of leather chaps when he walks into that court room.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 02 January 2004 at 10:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

A Collection of 22 Cobra Racing Cars
A Racing Boat
A Couple of Airplanes
A Rolls Royce

Gee whiz mister...10 years ago I became an orphan....would you like to adopt a very loving son?

<SMALL>"Can you have deputy Joey Ace watch the ranch ..."</SMALL>

That wouldn't work in this case, Jody, because I have email from one of the key people blocked. My last post explains the reasons.

Matters have got out of control here. I have a high regard for both of the major players in this regretable episode. Things would not have turned out this way in England, but I guess that is how you guys deal with things over there.

I still feel that it is not too late for common sense to prevail, and a dignified solution worked out. The worst part for me is that these guys were really good friends in the past, and for matters to escalate to the extent that they have is saddening and depressing.

KB

I am again saddened by this all.

I have spoken with Bobbe in the past by phone and met and e-mailed with Reece.

I like them both. And they do know steels better than most people.

You can have an opinion, and privately state it as you see fit.
But in a public forum whether online, in print or spoken publicly, you MUST be sure of your facts, especially if they are negative.

Yes you can say I don't like X brand because I find it... bla bla bla.

You CAN'T say X brand is poorly made, the company is run by thieves and all products are defective or dangerous to the users.

This would likely cause harm to the company and it's owners. This makes it actionable under most libel laws.

If another person states something untrue and harmful at your public function, such as a banquet, and are then quoted in the press, only they are libelous and not the people putting on the show.

But if they give a press interview and say the unproven alegations as facts, when they are not, then they again are libalous, but also the paper for the editorial decision on printing them.

If businesman X is being materially harmed by the public words of businessman Y based on incorrect or false public statements of fact, then he has every right and cause to sue.


But it IS so sad that it needs to come to that.

In this forum an adverse opinion can be stated, as long as it is not presented as fact other than in the personal experience of the poster.

But that said, it is wise to weigh your words CAREFULLY.

In 1Corinthians Chp 6 christians are discouraged from having lawsuits against each other and taking them to non christians for them to decide their fate. From what I see in this chapter it would seem that if the parties in this dispute are true christians then it should be worked out between themselves perhaps with the help of some christian mediator. Unbelievers in God's eyes should not be used to solve problems that arise between believers.
Perhaps this might help to put things in perspective. I am praying for both parties and hope that they will be able to resolve this dispute themselves.

I hope MSA realises that this could harm their name even more.
They seemed to be on the right track of becoming a respected company again, the new guitar is getting a lot of positive attention. Silencing critics through a lawsuit is unworthy of the faith they should have in their own product.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

Just a question.Was the MSA ever sued by the people who payed and never received their guitars in the past?From the past topics I can see that there is quite a few people very mad at the MSA and those people can ,in this situation be of great help to Bobbe.Do I hear a word "class action counter law suit"? What would that mean?
However,the whole thing is pretty sad and I agree with Mike,this probably goes way back and it`s probably not just about the guitar.However,it`s non of my business to have my nose in this so I`m out of here.

------------------
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 03 January 2004 at 12:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

I sure hate to see this lawsuit going on. I do not know Bobbe personally but have contacted him by e-mail only. Everyone in this country has been given freedom of speech by our constitution. Also, you can sue anyone for anything which sometimes gets down right ridiculious. We all have seen frivilous lawsuits with substantial settlements we never thought would happen. I would like to see this settled out of court but if it does not, we still have the best court system. I would say there have been many times the system did not provide justice but I do not know of a better system anywhere else. I do not know if this would be a jury trial or a case ruled by a judge, but no one wins. There was a statement made earlier wondering if anyone who lost to MSA had sued MSA or Reece. I had such a small loss compared to others I would not have spent the money on fees. I have since been made an offer by the new MSA which shows me they were trying to settle with me. What they did with others I do not know. I just hope this case is settled where we as the steel guitar community can go on and enjoy these sites and enjoy the instrument that has brought us all together.

Paul,

I have to agree with your point about frivolous lawsuits and how absurd they sometimes are, but can't agree about this justice system.

I was stopped by a State Trooper when I was doing 81 mph in a '55' zone. This required my appearance in the local Courthouse a month later; the lawyer I selected at random from the Yellow Pages said it would cost me $400 to get this sorted out. The end result? My charge was reduced to '1 to 9 mph over the limit'(a $55 fine), and I'd provided no evidence of any sort in my defense! I don't know what you'd call that, but surely not 'justice'? If I hadn't had that $400 (I wonder where it went?) I'd have faced a 'misdemeanor' (reckless driving) and been in much more trouble....

This business is most unfortunate - I tend to think that the plaintiff is in danger of alienating a section of the very small community that is his customer-base.

Like most of you, I wish this would be resolved by direct communication between the two parties....

RR<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 03 January 2004 at 10:07 AM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>Silencing critics through a lawsuit...</SMALL>

Excuse me, but what went on over there was not criticism. It was a SUSTAINED, NONSTOP CAMPAIGN OF CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. Reece was personally maligned almost daily. His character, honesty, integrity and even sexuality were called into question. The guitars were constantly described as Tupperware or plastic. Such fine players as Tommy White and Johnny Cox as well as our fellow forumite Donny Hinson were all maligned because they bought guitars. (Note, I've never heard Donny play, so I can't attest to his prowess, but he's been at it for decades, so it reasonable to assume he knows what he's doing.) Reece's attorney Dave Horner was called a moron, and as I mentioned, even Curly Chalker was dissed because he played an MSA at one time.

Much of this was done by this character who called himself Ben Dover, who also suggested that [deleted by moderator].

But even without Dover's comments, the overall theme and purpose of the forum appeared to be "Let's try to destroy Reece and his new guitar." Bobbe seemed to encourage this and often posted negative things about Reece or the guitar himself.

We all have our favorite and least favorite guitars. But it's one thing to say "I don't like the tone of the (pick a brand) and quite another to repeatedly attack both the guitar and he character and integrity of the manufacturer on a daily basis.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 03 January 2004 at 07:27 PM.]</p></FONT>

<SMALL>"It's a public record like I said and if folks really want to know they can check it out, but I certainly am one of them."</SMALL>

Has anyone found a link to the public record of this suit yet? All I found was a dismissed suit against his dentist from 1992, nothing else on him, MSA, or MicroSpace.

@Mike

I read Bobbe's forum every day, and indeed a few remarks have been made, but not in a way and number that you're suggesting. Most of the forum was nice and informative, and if someone is seriously interested in the MSA Millennium, he wouldn't be stopped by these few remarks.
Would you??

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

<SMALL>All I found was a dismissed suit against his dentist</SMALL>

that just could have been from an unnecessary pull.....

Thanks, Fred, for confirming that it is Maurice that is bringing this suit. My first guess was Bill Hankey. Shows how you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

I have not seen the complaint in question, but I'll lay money that the following are true:

1) The complaint is probably in excess of twenty pages long and contains multiple charges. This is done both to intimidate the defendent and also to increase the odds of winning on at least one of the charges.

2) The essence of the complaint is that Bobbe is a competitor to MSA and that he used his statements to cause MSA to lose business and enhance his own.

3) In addition to business losses, Bobbe's statements caused Maurice Andersen embarrassment and mental anguish.

This would be consistent with similar suits brought in the past. Anyone wishing to prove me wrong, please do.

The key point, of course, is to characterize Bobbe as a business competitor to MSA. Making these kind of charges stick against an individual is pretty much impossible. But if it can be shown that the Bobbe had a financial interest in maligning Maurice, it becomes a different game entirely.

Now we all know that Bobbe doesn't need a financial incentive to make controversial statements.

And, just because two people are in a related business doesn't mean they aren't free to express their opinions. The evidence has to be pretty strong that specific comments had a specific impact on MSA's business. I think it's a longshot that MSA would prevail in court, but it's still a risk and expense that I wouldn't care to undertake.

Here's one thing to consider -- companies with full order books typically don't waste their time with these kinds of suits.

Oh, and Fred, if Maurice would be willing to provide the index number for the complaint that would be helpful.

Hey Guys...........

I'm not wishing to start anything here,but does this lawsuit have anything to do with the fact that while watchin' the "GOO" now-a-days,I dont see T.W. playing his "Milliumun" anymore ?? I noticed he went back to his "Carter" and another axe I couldn't make out the name of. I noticed that when it first came out,the big "M" was touted as the axe of the century. Now,you don't see or hear anything of it.

Naturally, I will never own one of these fine axe's because I cain't afford it. I was able to look one over quite well (Thanks to Johnny Cox),didn't get to play or a/B it. As far as tone,sustain,etc,etc, I think that is subjective to the player ears only !! If you are in the audiance, believe me, the tone,sound is in the hands of the player. There ain't too many of you that if you haven't seen the axe before Mr. X started playing,you wouldn't know if it was a El Cheapo "ripoff" or a hi-zoot" name brand.

My question is :

Has the "Milliumn" fallen from grace ??
or
Has the price killed it at the front ??

No flame intended to anyone or anything,I'm just at lost about the axe.

As for the lawsuit, I'm sure,what ever the outcome is,that both parties will surive. My only regret is that it's happin' to the Steel community.

I think the key **, is to start small and work up.

I've got a couple things I need to explain to my grandson now...

He was bound to find out someday... He's thinking of taking up the Ocarina instead. Maybe that's best.



I used to want this to work out well for all concerned.

Now I'm not so sure..



EJL

Tommy's been playing his new Fessy on the GOO.

He posted here that he still has his Carter.
Of course he's never far from his ShoBud.

Nothing anyone could say would disuade me for what
my hands(+ knees) feel and ears hear.
The MSA I played at ISGC was a supurlative instrument on all counts.
And I heard Johhny Cox play it and it was killer in his hands.

What I know of Tommy White is his love of all steels.
And like most serious collectors he likes to play all of them when he can.
I suspect the MSA is just waiting in rotation.

Observations :
If one has been injured before, and has a remedy that has worked before, one might be more inclined to try it again, earlier rather than later the second time around. Especially if one feels their health or livelyhood is at risk.

Most lawyers will not pursue a suit if they don't feel that they have a reasonable chance to prevail. And at the other side is a reasonably deep pocket to absorb the fees when all is said and done.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 January 2004 at 02:50 PM.]</p></FONT>

The strange thing is that there is NO WAY to verify who said what. Who is this "Ben Dover" character? And how can they prove Steel Guitar Nashville was behind his statements? It could be some guy in Indonesia for all anyone knows.

If Bobbe supported his statements, then why did he shut down the forum? Plus, to be a "competitor" Bobbe would have to be a manufacturer. Though he has made guitars in the past, Bobbe is more on the retail side of the business.

So why would Bobbe personally speak poorly of a guitat that he might have for sale used in a year's time? Suppose a player wants to sell their MSA Mellinium to Bobbe for whatever reason one year from now. Suppose everybody who looks on steelguitar.net goes,"Yuk, I don't want to buy that guitar, I heard it was no good on Bobbe's forum.". That would hurt BOBBE'S business.

I think Bobbe obviously did the right thing by shutting down his forum, since it seems to of upset people. I believe that stands as a sign of good character on his part.

I undertsand some crude things where said on that forum, but did Bobbe actually say it? Did he support those views?

I don't think you can hold somebody responsible for things they didn't personally say. It's like if I was in your house, and I said something bad about you next door neighbor, and your neighbor got mad at you because I said it on your property.

If threads where not sooner taken care of, it was probably because most of Bobbe's time is spent running a store, his website takes a second if he is busy talking on the phone to a potential customer in Russia, or trying to buy an amp from a local player.

I've heard people say some pretty "bellow the belt" comments about Bobbe on this forum AND his forum. Every time he simply laughs it off, because he knows it is just plain old "ribbing". It's a shame this has come to this, for all involved.

Sad, sad, sad,

Chris Scruggs

P.S.

Now this next statement is NOT my actual opinion, so all the Emmons players can settle down, but if I where to post,"Emmons steels are ugly and sound bad", could Emmons sue b0b, since I posted it here?

Just curious. CS

Chris check two posts up for me. I think I addressed your question.

Your hypothetical question is borderline, but leaning towards personal tastes, and not an attack on the company, it's quality control or it's makers.

Finding Ben Dover might be technically possible, especially if the forum site has been suppenaed and/or impounded as evidence prior to it's being closed down.

A print out of the site would likely be considered acurate and the logging software, might include the alias of those creating them. Unless it was done as an "inside job alias" with no record of who created it through Easyboard.
In which case it might lend credence to the accusers case.

In any case it is sad it has come to this.
It is sad that Reece et al, felt pushed to this action.

CS,and others I guess,

* ALL IMHO *

In my experience, in a case I was associated loosely in Nevada, a performer made derrogatory remarks about another performer. True or not, they "could adversely affect the plaintiff's ability to make a living". A retraction was demanded in lieu of a lawsuit.

Well the retraction went out CCed to every agent and club that the respondent could think of, noting a sincere apology for the statement that was included, and the fact that it was in response to a pending lawsuit by the performer.

She didn't work in Nevada again that I ever heard of..

My continuing beef is that although I'm not a "permanant resident" or an "old timer" is that the forum tends to become something other than a "Players Forum" when people use it without that in mind. As I've said almost ALL of the Players that have other interests tend to view it that way, If somebody didn't "know better" they'd think that Mr's Emmons, Franklin, Winston, Green ( by proxy) Bowman, Sweeney, and others were just "regular gigging steel players". They don't tout their "products", or seem to be offended by peoples' not liking either their guitars, endorsed products, books, repair jobs or otherwise. This, even when they post information about them or "make announcements".( Hell Chris, for all I know you're getting royalties from "Scruggs Pegs™") It just seems like they ALWAYS keep their "Players Perspective" in mind.

WHen they talk about"top people" people being "scared away" or "otherwise repulsed" by bush leaguers with ribald senses of humor or irreverence, I think it's rather that they don't want to be considered as "front men" or otherwise somebody to be afraid of.

You will always have "boot lickers" " leg humpers" and the "chronically offended" as on any other BBS. Simple issues are always clouded by them save for the "post high school" mentality of most.

I was still wondering "who owns Sho Bud # 2"....

I do hope that the people that have tried turned this wonderful board into something other than it is are unsucessful. All it takes is some Common Sense.

Lawyers CAN help a person fight past and present business problems. They CAN probably sue you into the HOF. They CAN sue you into being feared. I have a healthy fear of them, even the ones that sue me into having a clean driving record. (They know I was guilty..)

They CAN'T however sue you into becoming a "regular guy". Somewhere in the LONG list of things they CAN'T do, is sue you into being liked, or getting into "heaven".

A lot of people seem to equate people with dogs. I am one in some instances. You can beat a dog into "minding" of "behaving", but you can't beat him into "Being Your Dog".

It would be nice if all b0b had to worry about is whether I'm going to use up his hard drive with "stupid stories", or Bill Hankey melting his processor with the latest quantum-physics-bending theorum.

Maybe we can prove to him how much we appreciate his forbearance and his love of helping out fellow players by winding this down into a " We'll See", and move on to a "Players Subject".

Any seconds?

EJL

OK, OK I have had enough...you asked, you wanted to know the truth? well I'll give it
to ya.

The mysterious Bend Over is my Urologist. I call him the push pull doctor,,he pushes and I pull. Now are you satisfied?..

Dr.Bendovers patient

Isaac Benderover, for short they call me

I bendovertoomanytimes...thats greek for "No Not That again"

Hi Howard...the doctor is in to see you

I went in for my "forty finger" some years ago.

The Urologist asked if I was feeling any discomfort, and I admit, I was.

It was then that I realised that his hands were BOTH on my shoulders..

Oi Vey...



Nap, Gig,.. You know the routine..

Later kids.

EJL