The Steel Guitar Forum

Talent.Think about it.All the great Steel players where good at an early age.Emmons,Chalker,Paul Franklin,Mike Johnson,Tommy White,Bobby White,Pee Wee Whitewing.Just to name a few.Name any great player and chances are he was good by the time he could drive.

If someone's been playing 5 years and they aren't good, at least good enough to bend a good players ear now and then they will never be real good. Just my opinion.

Now to drift back to the topic.I used to could play any chord I could name.

Wes Montgomery is another total genius, absolute master of music, who didn't even read chord symbols- but he KNEW, in the big sense of the word, everything he was doing. He just didn't use the "organizational terms" or lingo or whatever you'd call the traditional way of learning theory and chord construction.

One of the greatest things I've ever seen is the "Belgium '65" video, issued by Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop. ..Wes playing his ass off, so relaxed and smiling, just having a great time, making it look so easy!

If Wes could read and write, he sure as hell could read chord symbols, what retard who wanted to make it wouldn't learn something that simply? The record company's back in the 50' and 60' were all into saying how this or that artist didn't know how they did it, it was just divin inspiration, B.S. It is just another way to sell records, Wes came from a musical family and they all could play jazz and blues. This family studied together, they just couldn't read lines as fast as a classical player can, which is pretty normal. Winton Marsallis talked about this and showed how they tried to do this with a young sax player who was formally trained (Jonathon Redman had a degree in music), and this was in the 80'. You can study stuff and then foreget how to explain it, but still play it, which of you hasn't had this happen. I know guitar players who rip on the minor pentatonic but end up sounding predictable, you get out of it what you put into it. Wes studied all the time even when he had a day job, the use of the thumb and octaves was so he didn't disturb his neighbors, he was always working it trying to get better. Bix Spiderbeck was the only guy I know who supposedly just picked up a horn and started blowing without anything more than a record player and his buddies to learn from, but he always doubted himself because of a lack of theory he said.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 12 December 2003 at 09:24 AM.]</p></FONT>

True words about Wes Montgomery! For some inspirational improvisational guitar playing check out Wes's "Full House", recorded live at Tsubo, Berkley, California!

www.genejones.com

I appreciate all the good feedback I received on the two simple questions that I ask. Did you notice that no one entered a post saying that they did not know all the chords that they play?

Yea, I did on the Wes reply. You can study stuff (chords) like two note or 3 note subs that you know works for a certain main chord family type, but then it becomes a comping pattern that you know works, but would have to sit down and break it down to explain why. So in that respect, the answer is yes and no for me at least. I mean, it all becomes intuitve if you did your homework and applied it over and over.

Playing music is like talking. You don't analyze every sentence you utter to make sure the modifier agrees with the verb and that there are no dangling participles. If you know how to talk, you just do it, even if you don't know whether "were" is the subjunctive or the indicative mood. Same way with playing some 2m/5 substitution. If you played it before, because you understood, on some level, why it worked, and it sounded good, you'll play it again without having to intellectualize about it.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Cal Sharp on 15 December 2003 at 06:06 AM.]</p></FONT>

Cal, I wish I'd said what you said instead of what I said! I would have saved a lot of unnecessary words.


www.genejones.com

Studying chords and their patterns is the best and fastest way to get your ear to understand the changes.

Some guys have done this, by trial and error of many years, others used analysis to speed up the process.

Some didn't have the opportunity to study more formally, they just got it by osmosis. But many did at least think hard about a tune and how it was constructed, before they then went and just blew off a cool improv solo.

It can be as simple as taking a more difficult song you know works, and figuring out why.
The analysis of 10 expanded progression songs you don't know, will often provide a very fertile ground to think from when doing other simpler songs.

Again the idea of learning a harmonic roadmap and making your ear acustomed to it.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 December 2003 at 03:04 AM.]</p></FONT>

What Gene says"

what I should have said is...."of course it is, but IMHO the playing of the correct chords during a performance should be an automatic response, not a conscious effort to anticipate and mentally "name" each chord as it is played"

Gene-When I am playing, it is as you say'Automatic' response. If I had to think of the name every chord I am playing, that would slow me down.Most players , after they learn the chord structures and theory, etc. it becomes automatic. Having a good ear for pitch don't hurt either, or as Carl says. Talent.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Lots of great discourse. A couple of thoughts:

1. Being able to name a chord doesn't mean you think about it consciously every time you play a chord progression. The point is that knowing the names and being able to spell the chords enhances the player's ability to work out musically interesting arrangements. I'm not saying that all MUST do that, only that it can make the player a better improviser and composer.

2. I will reiterate: There are certainly examples of musicians who attained high levels of proficiency without understanding 'on paper' what makes music work. That doesn't mean that studying scale and chord composition is not a beneficial learning experience for a musician who wants to improvise and compose his/her own solos and arrangements.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

I have been around a few good pickers that
can play right along with some of the pro
players. They know the key that they are
playing in, but beyond that, they will tell
you that they use a certain pedal or lever
to get the sound they want. As far as being able to name all the chords, they can't.

Boy did we take 7 letters and make them complicated??????????????????

ernie

Bill Anderson playing on a gig with us in South Fl. in 73, told the band this song would sound better if we play it in a minor
key, and they did. At the time I thought that was great. I wonder if they knew music to do that , or just guessed at what they were doing???

I fit into Bobby B's defenition...I've been playing a lot loger than 5 years..and am still told to turn off the amp..but all that aside..I was taught by someone..I don't know if it was Buddy C or not..Any way...Play POSITION!!! ok learn your various chords and position for "root Chords",,ie 1,2,3,etc....min..augm.7th. Find the various positions for the different chords or Root Chords. There ar AT LEAST 3 postions for EACH CHORD, "Caution" some of those Chords (in the different postions) may have a different name. But it all comes down to what works best for you!. Some pickers have the ability to "burn up the strings..so to speak..others have the ability to "Hear a Song" and play it..still others have the ability to "Play as they Go" that is..hear the basic coarse that the song is going and play or improvise.
I can't read music.It is like a another language..(I could read.some 50 years ago).But the more knowledge the better...! but you still must have the "Feel"
Grouchy

Could we feel safe in saying that most
steelers use the number system rather
than music??

The number system IS music.
We're not talking about READING music here (at least I'm not). We're talking about understanding how to build scales and chords.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Nashville players do use the number system, but they understand that, for instance, the 4 chord in the key of F is a Bb.

Gene- yeah "Full House" by Wes is one of the all time greatest! The "Blue and Boogie" solo is like a composition in itself...and Wynton and Johnny Griffin and those guys don't sound too bad either!

Jesse- Pat Metheny told me in person in 1977 that Wes didn't know from chord symbols- I don't know, maybe he did- the point is that Wes KNEW, and HEARD, as I said, exactly what he was doing, whether he labeled it whatever you or I would, or not.

KNOWING chords, whether or not you call them m7b5 or your mammy, is an important element in knowing what notes to play against your mammy. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by John McGann on 17 December 2003 at 06:23 PM.]</p></FONT>

Gene,
I was reading some of the post again..another night, and talking to myself, I pondered on "Knowing thae Names of the chords that you are playing" And I said to myself "Self..how do you play..and I said back tomyself..I "FEEL" the chords or rifts or whatever that I have to play.I don't "Think It", I Feel It..However..sometimes I may >Feel it wrong, But You touched on The Feel... There are times that I don't have the slightest clue as to whats being played..So I FEEL my way..or wing it..I guess I mayhave picked that up from Buddy CH. when I was tacking instructions from him..To Feel Your Way around when you get into a bind..or commonly called "Facking It). But you must still KNOW
you're positions and chors structures.
Grouchyvet

So this thread has inspired me to make a real effort to learn my chords in every position. What I've done is set my band in a box to the following progression.

I-iim-iiim-IV-V-vim-viidim-I

The only problem is the diminished chord. Is this right in the harmonized scale? The chord doesn't sound right to me. Can someone help me with this?

Otherwise, I think this harmonized progression is a great way for beginners like me to learn you chords in every position. Where you start the I chord dictates a whole new set of positions for other chords for that key.

Remember, horn players play single notes, not chords. This also goes for violin family players, except for double stops (and technically even those are not chords). It's a whole different world. If you stick to reading music, you need to know almost no theory. Just be able to remember the key signature and apply the right sharps or flats. The composer has done all the theory.

Playing by ear is a whole other thing. Many people who can read music brilliantly cannot play by ear at all; likewise, some who play well by ear are self taught and can't read music. To play by ear you need to learn the major, minor and blues scales in a few basic keys. Then you just practice playing new stuff by ear until it becomes more or less automatic. Some formal training in chord theory will help you play harmony and stay within a chord progression, even if you don't know the melody or can't play by ear well enough to just spit out a new melody after you hear it once. Also, there is no cappo for a horn. If the singer wants to sing in F#, you gotta be able to play in that key. I can read music for sax in any key. But, being an amateur, I can only play by ear in a few basic keys. The number system is not too helpful for single note players, unless they also know all the scales. In the end, you have to know the named note to play.

Keyboards, fretted guitars and steel guitar are all about chords. You have to be able to play the right chords for the right sounds at the right time, even if you don't know the names. The number system works best for guitars and steels. If someone yells IV, you just move your bar chord or steel up 5 frets (or hit the AB pedals). On keyboards, it is more difficult, because the black and white keys are unevenly spaced. So five notes up the pattern of black and white notes for a chord are different. For example, you can easily move a major chord up the neck of a guitar or steel guitar by just holding the same chord and moving up one fret at at time. Any novice can do it. On keyboards it is very difficult to move a chord up one half-step at a time. The black and white note pattern you have to play changes completely with each half-step. Moving a chord up a half-step is a unique sound that Hawaiian music and steel guitar introduced to music. Before that most music was composed on a piano, and pianists would have never come up with that sound.

Maybe this is drifting off topic a little, but it's interesting to me. I play sax, keyboards, guitar and pedal steel (all amateurishly). There is some stuff that carries over among these, but each has some things that are completely different. The more theory I learn, the more stuff carries over among the different instruments. Knowing the named chords on guitar for a certain song, helps me play harmony with the progression on sax, even if I can't play the melody. Being able to visualize a piano keyboard and knowing the names of all the notes, helps me apply theory to the other instruments. In fact, when looking at pedal steel copedents, I like to transpose them in my spreadsheet into the key of C, where I can visualize the theory most easily. C is the only key in which I can read music on pedal steel, and the only key in which I intuitively know the relationship between the notes the strings and pedals play and the piano notes. This is because in C the major scale is the white notes from C to C, and the sharps and flats are just the black notes, and I visualize all that so easily that the number system and the named notes are synonymous to me in that key. It would be nice to know a bunch of other scales, but at least I have that one key down in all my instruments.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David Doggett on 22 December 2003 at 06:44 AM.]</p></FONT>

Ward, I generally put a diminished as #IV or bV.
As a passing chord. There are othes places of course but this is a normally used change for me, ala the blues.

Also try playing a I chord, drop down 2 frets play Dom7, then up one fret diminished, and quickly into I again. This should make clear how the VII dim works.

It can be used a half step sharp or flat of most any scale degree chord as a transition. How long you rest on it determines how cool it sounds. Somtimes shorter is MUCH better.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 December 2003 at 05:50 AM.]</p></FONT>

Ward, II is sometimes played as a major, particularly in the II, V7, I ragtime ending to a verse or chorus.

In addition to the IIVb7 that the other DD pointed out, the IIIb is also a common chord in blues, jazz and country. Toby Keith uses it in some of his recent songs. It has the strange ability to be a major chord that can throw a minor sound into a progression, because its root is the minor third of the key.

This is all just to suggest trying both majors and minors at all the scale positions, and also check out some positions off the major scale, like the flatted III and IIV chords.

I have always seen learning chords, along with the correct scales that work through them, as the language of music. Its hard to speak complete thoughts if I don't understand the language.

Have a great holiday season,

Paul

It seems to me that much of this debate is revolving around semantics- Let's say one guy is thinking: "Ok, I'm on the V chord in this progression and I want to use a bV substitution to get some altered notes against this chord, and my options to play a flatted fifth away from this current chord are X,Y,and Z..." While another guy might think " I want to get that 'out' sound here, so I know if I just mash this lever and then slide to there and mash that pedal, I'll get that sound." My point is, they're both thinking about chords/scales, just from a different perspective. The player who starts out from the theoretical approach ends up playing more by feel and intuition as he internalizes the theory. The player who has learned by ear or position may have more work to do finding other postions and communicating with other musicians. Hopefully they both bring "heart" and "soul" to their playing- but whether they realize it or not, they're both using theory and the number system, just from different organizational perspectives. (a iim-V resolving to a Imaj7 is still the same thing when it's thought of as "that sound I get when I hit these strings, let off this pedal and press this lever".) So if they're just different ways of looking at music, it would seem that the more one learns about every approach (ie: actively studying music theory, chord/scale relationships, the number system as a tool for cataloging and understanding progressions, as well as learning by ear) the faster and more usefully musical education progresses. Lets face it, we all have a limited time to learn. And Music theory in all it's forms is the shortcut.

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