Proper Tempo For O.B.S.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 18 Nov 2003 7:24 pm

Bobby Lee,

I tried horsing around, by playing off the 9th string to see if you were on to something. It is to me, about the same as if you were to play off the 8th string. Have I missed something? After an extended period of practice, I've abandoned that concept. It reminds me of the female patridge, with a "broken" wing. If you want to fly, it's back to the top 5 strings, using the (A) pedal, and (F) lever. Curl the wrist slightly, and put some snap into the fingers. This is truly the "powder puff" area to bring O.B.S. to terms by utilizing cross-over style picking. Using a back-slap harmonics effect, made possible by shucking the finger picks, and using just the thumb pick, I am able to present an entirely new sound, that offers something a little different for the listening audience.

Bill H.

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 18 Nov 2003 8:22 pm

Even the O.B.S will slow down, and if we are lucky it will stop.

This thread should've ended after the Bovine spoke.

Everyone wants the Master players to get on the Forum to hear from them and Learn. But there are a few and I'm not implying that it is you, That badger and question what they do , how their amp is set, what gauge strings, etc. If I were a Master Steel guitar player, I would resent some rube from West Podunk, Anywhere questioning my ability, Style, Tone, knowledge or any thing else concerned with the instrument they play so well. I'm surprised that People like Paul, Buddy or any of the others would come on here and be subjected to such treatment. There are some that don't and I personally don't blame them.

John: You've observed this in this thread? Would you mind pointing out where?
Maybe you've coaxed some elusive meaning from the byzantine Hankesaurian text--a meaning not apparent to the rest of us Forum Rubes.

Both of Paul's posts contained wise nuggets, I thought. However, I'm feeling badgered by him, you know, trying to get me to learn a jazz tune when I'm still wrestling with the harmonic intricacies of "Jambalaya."

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 19 Nov 2003 12:27 am

Bill H.,

I hate to bring this back up, but I must take side with Donny H.

You said in an earlier post,"The Dobro cannot mimic a steel guitar".

That is right. The Dobro cannot MIMIC a steel guitar BECAUSE IT IS A STEEL GUITAR.

That is like A Fender Stratocaster player saying a Martin D-18 cannot mimic a guitar, suggesting that the only definition of a guitar is a solidbody electric instrument.

I know what you MEANT to say, but the way it was said implied that the dobro is no more a steel guitar than a fiddle is. Your comment did not clarify your point that,"the dobro has melodic limitations that a PSG does not."

It seems to be an attitude with some pedal
steel players that the only instruments worthy of being called "steel guitars" are D-10's with 8x4. I'm sure you didn't mean that, but some straight steel players get that feeling sometimes.

I'm sure an open minded, forward thinking gentleman like yourself can see the reason in this view.

Oh, and now a little joke:

Q:How should Oarnge Blossom Special be played?

A:On a fiddle!

With no hard feelings, and just for the sake of debate,

Chris Scruggs

P.S. It's funny how we can talk all day about string gauges, palm blocking vs. pick blocking, proper vibrato technique and right hand placement, but when it comes down to it, it's still all about, "Who can play the fastest", and "How fast is too fast". I suppose within all of us, there is a 12 year old heavy metal kid waiting to bust out and "shred" on a Gibson Flying V.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Nov 2003 2:07 am

Niklas, very nice version. clean and bluesy too. I like the guitars trading off during the fade too.

Paul is quite right Jerry Doublas could ace this tune in the studio or the stage and at any bluegrass speed.

We used to do it in NYC with one of Sally Van Meter's students on dobro. We never slowed down for him either. He said she did a fine version too.

Paul the welsh fiddler I play with over here can ace All The Thigs you are, make you cry as a slow tune and then double tempo and pin back your ears... and he does Irish tunes a full speed too.
But he hasn't a clue about OBS, we did it a few times in one band and dropped it. Go figure.

I will have him on the next session of country/jazz, tunes from the 20's to 60's.
As divergent as Autumn Leaves, Jazz Baby and Harvest.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 November 2003 at 02:17 AM.]

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » 19 Nov 2003 3:15 am

162bpm.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Nov 2003 6:27 am

Chris S.,

If you were to meet a fellow musician on a Nashville walkway, and politely acknowledged his reason for approaching a musical instruments storefront, what would you think, if he said, I'll be picking up a steel guitar? Wouldn't your first line of thoughts be trained on an imaginary single or double ten pedal steel guitar? We've progressed unbelievably, from when the distant "cousin" with raised string modifications, called the "dobro", was really nothing more than a glorified Spanish guitar. A particular added distinction, called a resonator, was mounted beneath the sound bridge, thus producing a "steely" effect. There is little reference to the half round which is the very "core", and by far more important feature, which enables a dobroist to press his bar solidly over the strings. Some of the latent features, which are notable, and allow the dobroist to generate an uptempo version of a given melody, is the incessant bouncing of the bar at the second fret, and elsewhere. Who knows if interests would wane, should the dobroist be forced to relinquish the familiar hammering at the 2nd fret. Some full sized Spanish guitars, such as the Unity, included a conversion kit of half rounds, picks, and bar, which would require detuning to facilitate the placement of the half-round over the nut. A simple tuning change would allow the player to play "steel" guitar. But really, would it not be more reasonable, to recognize the advancements made in the production of modern pedal steel guitars? When I said that dobroists cannot mimic steel guitarists, it was an assumption, that a picture could be drawn of the dobroist standing, and a pedal steel guitarist seated with knee levers galore, plus a 24" scale for exacting highs, which cannot be found on the dobro. The word mimic means sounding like, or a near exactness to the original sounds, like a mockingbird imitating 50 songbirds. Blindfolded, I would have no problem in distiguishing a dobro from a pedal steel guitar, on stage playing O.B.S.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 19 November 2003 at 08:25 AM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 19 Nov 2003 6:55 am

55 posts about OBS!!!

Proper Tempo For O.B.S.

answer: As fast as you can accurately play it.

Terry

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 19 Nov 2003 7:55 am

Proper tempo for OBS

It's like those menus in French restaurants with no prices. If you have to ask, it's probably too fast

------------------
www.tyack.com

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Nov 2003 8:30 am

It's like those menus in French restaurants with no prices. If you have to ask, it's probably too fast

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 19 Nov 2003 8:49 am

Bill Hankey,

Technically, the "original" sound is the sound of a dobro. Seeing as the resonator was patented in 1929, and the pedal steel was not invented unti 1939( end even then, not it's own distinct instrument until 1953).

I too, can tell the difference blindfolded. But I would classify them both as "GUITAR related instruments played with a solid piece of STEEL". Thus, steel guitar.

Yes there are things a pedal steel can do that a dobro cannot. But I believe that there are more pedal steel players with Match Bro's "mimicing" the dobro, than there are dobro players "mimicing" the PSG.

I agree that comparing the PSG and the dobro is like comparing apples and oranges. But still, they are both fruits.

Your original "mimic" post implied that the orange was a vegetable.

Yes, dobro players do alot of bar bouncing, and yes they also do the "2nd fret lick". Would there interest wane if a hypothetical law was passed banning them? Maybe. But I would love to see a pedal steel player try and play if told that he could no longer swell his volume pedal, or use his AxB pedals for that trademark 1 to 4, 5 to 1 chord change.

They each have their own place. A steel guitar for every occasion, so to speak. I have no problem "accepting the advancements made"(I'm sure even Jerry Douglas would agree advancemants have been made).But just because one is "standard" does not render the other obsolete.

Consider the upright bass and the bass guitar. It goes without saying that the electric bass is the standard today. And when you hear somebody say,"I play bass", chances are you think of a bass guitar. Why? Because it is not as limited as it's viol counterpart. It has superior sustain, is lighter and smaller, can be made louder, plays in perfect tune, and is easier to play.

But I seriously doubt we will be seeing a bass guitar section in the symphany any time soon. Even bass guitarists will agree that the upright bass is key to the overall sound of a bluegrass, traditional jazz, or rockabilly band.

By the way, the dobro is not the pedal steels "distant cousin". It is it's granddaddy.

Respectfully, and for the sake of debate,

Chris Scruggs

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Nov 2003 9:03 am

Unless the fiddler has seated himself, and trifled with a steel guitar to the point of realizing, that to play anything that is recognizable of a melody, requires some serious efforts. In effect, his future stage appearances, hopefully, would include recalling what the steel guitarist must do, to produce a parallel of a given tempo played on the fiddle.

Bill H.

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » 19 Nov 2003 9:21 am

Circa 1973 I installed palm pedals on Jim Messina's dobro. I guess its kinda like the person walking behind the hospital stepping on a discarded tetanus needle. Now what do you do? Boomer

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Nov 2003 9:29 am

Chris S.,

Thanks for the wonderful article. I will stand corrected on many issues. I appreciate your tenacity, and your ability to uphold a musical instrument that has become an endearment to so many fans of country, bluegrass, and a variety closely related musical genres.

Bill H.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 19 Nov 2003 9:35 am

Bill, If the steel player can't hack the tempo, he should just play fills. Let the banjo player or the guitar play the ride. If the steel player has a problem playing too many up tempo songs on the band's song list, maybe he is not ready for this band and needs to spend some time in the woodshed or find another band. If the band really needs the steel player (with his limitations) then the band needs to make adjustments to the songlist or decrease the tempo accordingly.

There is no proper tempo. There is only the tempo that works for you and the band. If the tempo works for you and not the band, find a new band. Or the band finds a new steel player. It really is that simple.

"...there is no spoon."

Terry

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 19 Nov 2003 9:36 am

Bill H.,

Why, thank you. I must say I always enjoy reading your posts, even when it comes to debate. I suppose that is why this wonderful forum is here.

Next time I'm up your way, or next time you're down here, we should really get together. I'm a bit curious as to your "five finger grabbing" style that you've mentioned in previous posts.

Chris Scruggs

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Nov 2003 9:49 am

Chris S.,

I'll be looking forward to meeting you. I would enjoy the friendship.

Bill H.