The Steel Guitar Forum

Barry, Curt is correct. the guys who build them at Eminence, told me in a blindfold test you couldn't tell the difference from a speaker 6 months old, and a new one out of the box. And those dudes build them. Also dewitt at scotty's, Frenchy,and someone who works at seymours shop told me the samething...like curt says..play the thing. ..i think this speaker break in business came from the same guys that buy that pack of Winstons, and drive you crazy beating them on the counter top before they can smoke them......

Thanks, boys. Suspicions confirmed ....

I never got the impression that anyone was "supposed to" break in a speaker before they used it. It's just that the speakers do naturally break in over time as you use them. The sound is undeniably different on pretty much every new speaker I've ever heard. It's not always drastic, but there's no question that the sound gets less hard and crisp after many hours of use, especially when played a lot during a hot, humid summer. I guess some people got the impression that breaking-in was some kind of process that you should put a speaker thru before it's "ready". I've never heard that claim. I've just noticed that my fresh recones and new speakers don't sound nearly as musical new as they do a few months later. You can feel it too by touching the cones, and it's not just the surround that softens up, it's the whole cone. C'mon, it's paper. Compare a brand new paperback book to after it's been read 10 times. I fail to see the argument. I hear it every time.

Brad

Hey Mike, thanks for sharing that feedback from your "lab tests" on the new Webbs with us. It's pretty exciting. That aluminum cabinet idea is so foriegn to me. It's nice to hear that kind of report you gave it. I'm a recent convert to sealed/ported cabinets for steel. My experience is that the sound is very large and very balanced thru the spectrum. I look forward to checking out these new amps.

Regarding the graphic EQ on the Webb, Jimmy Webb told me also that he never cared for using it. He liked having it there for problematic instruments or acoustic situations, but the amp circuit is much more simple and pure with it bypassed. I never used it on my 614-E. If you look at the circuit, you can see that by using the graphic EQ, you subject the signal to more active stages, somewhat degrading the signal path and diminishing the sound quality, at least in theory. I always preferred the sound with it off.

Thanks Tom for keeping these cool amps alive!!!

Brad



<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 22 September 2006 at 03:25 PM.]</p></FONT>

Just wondering what the actual weight of the new 614-E is with the new Kappalite speaker? Thanks, George

Just wondering what the actual weight is of the new 614-E with the Kappalite speaker? Thanks, George

Tom said the Kappalite speaker was 12-13 lbs lighter than a JBL, so maybe you know the weight of a Webb w/ a JBL? I was nice and light, but then I have a heavy ass Vibrosonic w/ a ceramic magnet speaker, 85 lbs!

George - about 12-13 pounds lighter than the Webb with the JBL? <font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Barry Blackwood on 23 September 2006 at 10:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

Tom, thanks for the heads up on the Kappalite speaker. I have just received one from Bernie at BLT Sound and it is now in my Webb. It sounds great from highs to lows and makes the amp considerably lighter to carry. If you want this or any other Eminence speaker, I suggest trying bernie@bltsound.com. His prices and service are the best.

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Tom, if you want to look at other speaker possibilities I would suggest calling Ted Weber at WeberVST. Ted is one of the most honest guys I know in the business, and can make just about anything you want. His California series makes a great steel speaker in things like Twin Reverbs (it's a warmer JBL replacement), and I doubt he'd have any problem coming up with a great sounding 4-ohm, high-wattage version. He REALLY knows sound, and is also cost effective and won't oversell a manufacturer on a high-dollar speaker. You'd get a speaker custome-matched to the amp instead of an off-the-shelf speaker than happens to sound pretty good. Basically, IMO he'd probably be able to take the existing tone of the Webb and improve on it. It would be worth a phone call to check out.

I think someone mentioned Weber before, maybe it was Jim... Although Weber does not make a 15" with the power handling at 250 or more watts, Maybe Ted can make a custom unit for the Webbs. Ted's speakers are among the best, and cheap! The 15" weber Cali I bought was probably the best $110 I've spent.
I didn't think of a custom speaker.
check Him out Tom. www.tedweber.com

I got my Webb from Frenchie in N.M.I think it was in '77.I've never wanted any other amp.The serial no.is 1024.I went to a Black Widow after the last recone of the JBL turned out lousy.It really barks,especially on outdoor gigs.But the weight is getting to be a nuisance.How would the Kappalite compare with the B.W?

Re. the EQ section: I've found that it can be useful for adding some "hair" to the midrange (such as from a Fender amp) and getting a more "Peavey-like" overall sound, which can be useful for setting the steel in a particular mix. It must be the ceramic disc caps it adds to the signal path...

That said, I don't use it that much myself either.

Because of the positive remarks of posters here on the Forum, I received an order for one of the Kappalite speakers from Bob Johnson of Mims, Florida. I have ordered several dozen of these speakers from Eminence. Anyone who desires one, just let me know. This speaker has the tone, bite and volume I feel will satisfy the most discriminating user. They are reasonably priced, too. If your amp's current speaker is an 8-ohm, this Kappalite should work well for you. If not, I want it back! Being just 8 lbs., it should make a big difference in the weight of most amps. Even though I have a good supply of new JBL E-130s, I don't intend to install them, at 22.5 lbs. in the upcoming batch of new Webb amps I'm getting ready for selling. ...Tom<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 02 October 2006 at 07:01 PM.]</p></FONT>

Tom, I'll be in touch.

The Kappalites are much better than the E-130's
anyhow. Better low end & not as harsh in the
upper mids. They'll also handle way more power.


<font face=radagund><font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 03 October 2006 at 12:27 PM.]</p></FONT>

Tom, I would like to try one of the Kappalites. Give me a price and if you come to the San Jose jam we can make the exchange.

Thanks, Dave

whats the difference in sound between the Eminence Kappalite 3015 and the 3015LF models?
MODELS

For those interested, the Webb graphic EQ toggle switch that I've been recommending is this one:

506-MTG206N04

Search for that part number at Mouser.com. This is a very nice, gold contact toggle switch. The toggle bat is a bit shorter, but all the rest should be perfect. These switches are far more sensitive to soldering heat, so do be careful when wiring them up. The old Carlings that were stock in the Webb were very sturdy and rugged, they just lacked the good electrical contacts for low voltage audio signals.

Brad

Speaker break-in is not smoke and mirrors, guys. And speakers break in differently depending on how heavily they are doped, the makeup of the spider, the cone paper, etc. It takes simple playing time at medium-to-high volume to break a speaker in - the cone fibers, the doping, and the spider are all rather stiff when new. I'm surprised someone at Eminence would say you don't need to break in speakers - I've talked to them and they say the same thing that Weber, Celestion and other say...10-20 hours on average is what's needed. I'd love to know who those supposed employees were....guys in the test lab, warehouse employees, the guy who sweeps up...???

A new speaker will sound different that a broken-in speaker, and testing has been done proving the point. Guitar magazines have reviewed speakers, done break-in, and provided comments from the manufacturers...never has Eminence said in those articles that you don't need to break in a speaker. So why would they change their story now...and where have they published the information saying you DON'T need to break in a speaker?

Ted Weber is the most knowledgable source on this; pick up the phone and talk to him, you might learn something - but as a guitar player I was breaking in speakers in the 70's - we all were! We ran tape decks with repeat mode into an amp in the garage and let it run for a day. Still do with new amps, but now it's with an iPod! Makes a huge difference in the sound after a day or so of "playing time".

I will point out one difference - if you are buying an amp/speaker combination for squeaky-clean tones with lots of headroom, like for country steel, you will NOT notice break-in as much as someone who is playing a warmer setup where "running on the edge" of breakup - where you can distort things just by a subtle touch on your guitar's volume control (some guitars DO have volume controls...). A new speaker breaking up nearly always sounds harsh - it takes some playing time for them to bloom and warm up.

George, you're talking to guys at steel shops - and honestly, they probably won't know squat about speaker break-in because it's not something they would ever encounter. It's not as noticable an issue with steel guitar clean tones. It is a HUGE issue with 6-string guitar tones, especially in rock and blues. And it may have been "just recently discussed" here, but it's been talked about for years on 6-string forums.

There are differences in practical application of similar subjects between the steel and 6-string worlds, and speaker break-in is one of them.<font size="1" color="#8e236b"><p align="center">[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 October 2006 at 04:49 PM.]</p></FONT>

I don't know anything about speakers, but I read about breaking in a speaker or not to break in. Maybe both are right, you don't have to break in the speaker before you start using it, but while playing it breaks in itself.
Some can hear the difference and some can't.

Now everyone is right!

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Baldwin Crossover converted to SD-10, Evans SE200

Marco - you're right in some cases, as the difference depends on the speaker. A lightweight cone/spider with little (or no) doping (basically a low-wattage alnico design like the early Jensens) will change a very subtle amount as it breaks in. Also, a high-wattage, heavily doped, stiff speaker if used for clean tones will change very little, unless used for very high volume playing and taken to the point of distortion.

It's in the middle ranges, where speakers are run on the edge of breakup, where the sound differences are most dramatic. The whole "break-in" concept is ancient news in the 6-string world, and a normal practice. Experienced players get new amps and use old speakers until they can break in the ones that came with the amp in a practice amp - you never take an out-of-the-box amp to a gig and expect it to sound decent.

It's surprising that this is somehow "new" to the steel world.

Thanks Jim,
Very interesting and happy to have learned something today.

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Baldwin Crossover converted to SD-10, Evans SE200

Jim, I have played pro since the late '50's and until this year have NEVER heard of this, either from other steelers or any other musicians I have known, so there ya go ....